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Author Topic: anybody tried new speakers in Sunn 215s  (Read 1587 times)

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chev

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anybody tried new speakers in Sunn 215s
« on: April 12, 2011, 08:32:42 pm »

Anybody tried a new set of speakers in the Sunn 215s with good results?

The design makes it impossible to analyze in WinISD to check what speaker would work the best. So I'm looking for experience from other 215s users...

I'm looking towards Eminence...and to use it with a baritone lespaul in drop A and my Model T 1st gen! got low end!

Tried the Emi Big Ben already but maybe I could get more low end with another model? perhaps true bass speakers?

thanks!
Sunn Model T 1st gen+Sunn 215s+Sunn 412s, Sunn Beta Bass+Sunn 215+Sunn Coliseum Slave+2 x Sunn 115

EdBass

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Re: anybody tried new speakers in Sunn 215s
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2011, 09:46:54 pm »

I've tried a slew of different drivers in 215S's. Several sound good... To me.
I think I've documented most of my observations in previous posts, however my opinions may or may not be relevent.
For your application it depends on your definition of "good results". IMO WinISD is pretty much best suited to sound reinforcement applications anyway, and will be of no use with a 215S. You really need to use your ears and experience with MI enclosures anyway.
I think it's important to keep in mind the differences between sound production and sound reproduction. Rarely is truly accurate input signal reproduction the goal of musical instrument amplification, uncolored tone doesn't normally sound good for a guitar or bass amp; it's what you want for the PA, accurate reproduction of the sound your rig makes, but accurate flat response from a MI amp usually makes for a lifeless tone that doesn't sit well in the mix.
Also, while you can indeed design an efficient box with WinISD, it's going to be very specific. Keep in mind speaker enclosure design is a "tradeoff", if you specifically design for a "low end" enclosure it will be at the expense of other frequency ranges, and the end result might sound like crap unless you also add additional specific enclosures for the other ranges as well.
Which is why pro sound systems are generally tri amped or even quad amped.
Of course a 215S is a very flexible enclosure, but it will never make WinISD happy. But then, neither will an Ampeg 8X10.  :-D
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 10:03:38 pm by EdBass »

chev

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Re: anybody tried new speakers in Sunn 215s
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2011, 01:10:51 am »

ok, WinISD kind of let me compare between speakers in seeing gain and SPL level between a few speakers...

but I see what you mean, I'm not reproducing a mix, more one heavy guitar tone. good results for me is beeing able to have a solid & thick tone with overdrive + fuzz without farting out and loosing sustain.

I just tried my two Emi Big Ben in the 215s with the Model T and it sounds awesome!

but I'm tempted to try the Legend 1518, maybe do a mix of the two.

I've always use bi-amping since I tasted it. that way I can workout two distinct tone to cover more range with more precision. right now 4x12/2x15.

I will try to hunt down your post on the subject, I tried searching for 215s and didn't seen anything I'll try again.

thanks!
Sunn Model T 1st gen+Sunn 215s+Sunn 412s, Sunn Beta Bass+Sunn 215+Sunn Coliseum Slave+2 x Sunn 115

EdBass

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Re: anybody tried new speakers in Sunn 215s
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2011, 08:10:58 am »

but I see what you mean, I'm not reproducing a mix, more one heavy guitar tone. good results for me is beeing able to have a solid & thick tone with overdrive + fuzz without farting out and loosing sustain.

The best way to keep from farting out is to get drivers that have a high power rating with decent xmax. I’m not exactly sure what you mean by “sustain” relative to the drivers themselves, but the big power handling is another one of those tradeoffs, in this case usually a tradeoff for sensitivity, or overall SPL with a given amp.

I just tried my two Emi Big Ben in the 215s with the Model T and it sounds awesome!

Well, there you go then. It’s hard to beat “awesome”!

I've always use bi-amping since I tasted it. that way I can workout two distinct tone to cover more range with more precision. right now 4x12/2x15.

Where do you cross them over? I would think that given the nature of a guitar 4X12 and a Bass 2X15 they would both be covering a lot of the same frequency ranges.

I will try to hunt down your post on the subject, I tried searching for 215s and didn't seen anything I'll try again.

Here’s one that you actually started about a year and a half ago
http://sunn.ampage.org/sdp/index.php/topic,4743.0.html

and here’s a recent one dealing specifically with the 215S
http://sunn.ampage.org/sdp/index.php/topic,6062.0.html

chev

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Re: anybody tried new speakers in Sunn 215s
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2011, 01:25:26 pm »

The Big Ben's sound nice but it looks like they don't have any Xmax at all, they say Xmax 0 in the specs?? It sounds & feel tight for attack but maybe too compress to get the sustain «of the tone» I want.

I guess they're good for tighting up a huge 2x15 cab like my 215 reissue where I've put them before but now it's used strictly for bass.

A speaker with a higher Xmax would be good.

My «bi-amping» cover both the same frequency ranges, but I have my 4x12 rig with more mid bass & mids and the 2x15 rig with more sub-bass & mid-bass. I also EQ the amps accordingly.

It's kind of hard to explain instead of just earring it but does that makes more sense?

yeah I remember those threads! I can see you have use a few in the 215s. but I' looking for a guitar 15" speakers, but since I'm baritone maybe a bass 15" would do better...hum I've got to check the frequency range of my intrument...

It's nice to see that the 215s is a flexible cab design so I can go either route with it.
Sunn Model T 1st gen+Sunn 215s+Sunn 412s, Sunn Beta Bass+Sunn 215+Sunn Coliseum Slave+2 x Sunn 115

EdBass

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Re: anybody tried new speakers in Sunn 215s
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2011, 09:33:20 pm »

Very simply put, xmax is the distance the cone moves linearly in one direction, roughly half the distance of the width of the voicecoil. Since, also very basically put, SPL's, particularly bass frequencies, are "moving air", the further the cone can move the more air in can move.
I'm still confused by the role of the speaker in "sustain", by my definition "sustain" is the amount of time it tales a note or chord to decay. As far as a speaker is concerned, once the signal stops getting to the driver, the sound stops. If you strike a chord on your guitar, and while it's "sustaining" you jerked the speaker cord out of the cabinet it would stop making sound in milliseconds. To quick for you to hear it, it would react like you hit an off switch.
Don't try this experiment with a tube amp!

What you are doing and calling "bi-amping" isn't "bi-amping", I'm not sure what the term is, or if there even is one. Let's say "multi-amping" for lack of a better term. Bi-amping is using a seperate amp/driver dedicated to and optimized for a specific frequency range. Usually best used for sound reinforcement, as it is pretty complex to “get right” in a MI application, but it can be done, and is very efficient in maximizing SPL output.

Here’s a personal example, this was my main gig rig for about a decade;



It’s bi-amped, with a passive xover going to the tweeter box. I run 650 watts to the 2X15, 400 watts to the 4X10 and the tweeters. It takes more juice to amplify low frequencies than high frequencies. The 2X15 is x’ed @ 125 h (+/- depending on the venue) and the tweeter box is x’ed @ 3K hz.
It’s loud, really loud. However, to get it set up “sweet”, it takes a lot of time, almost as much time as tuning a big PA. I would generally pink it at about 100 dB for most venues, getting it flat using a 31 band eq (in the back of the rack) with the preamp eq set flat, and then adjust my tone with the preamp.

I still have it, don’t use it and frankly sometimes can’t believe I actually liked that “Seinfeld theme song” tone I used to get with it. It worked for the band I was in at the time, but I can’t imagine going back, I should probably sell it I suppose.

Anyway, that’s bi-amping, what you are doing is far more common and a heck of a lot easier to deal with, but if you want LOUD, true bi-amping is hard to beat.

chev

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Re: anybody tried new speakers in Sunn 215s
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2011, 09:59:08 pm »

That's bi-amping all right, it's impressive but I'll pass and keep it to my simple «multi-amping» rig then. :-)

Ok the speakers has nothing to do with sustain but maybe the way some frequencies decay...? not sure.

anyway, it seems harder to get a good sustain with lower frequencies...baritone is a challenge for that and bass is new to me.


« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 10:31:15 pm by chev »
Sunn Model T 1st gen+Sunn 215s+Sunn 412s, Sunn Beta Bass+Sunn 215+Sunn Coliseum Slave+2 x Sunn 115

EdBass

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Re: anybody tried new speakers in Sunn 215s
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2011, 10:14:15 pm »

Different drivers will certainly behave differently in any application, the search for the "holy grail" is never ending!  :wink:
Good luck with your search!