The sunn Forum
Sunn Musical Equipment => DIY => Topic started by: catalin gramada on October 12, 2014, 03:21:53 pm
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Hello everybody.
This is my very first post on Forum.I.m happy to meet so many peoples interested by Sunn projects.
I have a pair of Fane axiom 15b-300 which collect dust on my shelves and was thinking to put it into 200s cab. I have acces at a wood workshop and also I'm pretty skilled in wood craftshift to can build one from scratch by myself. I tried to contact Mr.Conrad without succes for the plans. So please if one of You can share the original plans for 200s, as accurate should be I much appreciate, please.
Sorry for my bad english. Thanks.
Best Regards.
Catalin
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I had this saved. Maybe it will help.
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Thank you Watson.
If dimensions are right I can work with it. You pick'ed up from yours cab, please? I'm little confused as I know 40x24x15" are external dimensions, but represented inside into pdf. Thanks.
Best Regards
Catalin
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I don't have a 200s cab. Just literature I collected that I thought might be better than no info at all. Many here no doubt have more info that is less generic than what I posted.
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Thanks again Watson. It is a great support for beggining. I will try to collect more data to be as close as I can. It is very easy to ruin a big project, as Sunn 200s it is,by differences in details and the details do the difference I believe.
Best Regards
Catalin
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Have you emailed Conrad from his site?
http://www.conradamps.com/www.conradamps.com/Welcome.html
He is usually quite good about responding to people. I can see if I can help you get in touch with him as he is a local friend of mine.
Greg
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Thanks Soundmasterg
I allready did it. He was kind to reply me in just few hours...incredible, and we have an arangement. Great cabinets, Great Man.
Thank You for support
Best Regards
Catalin
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K, I draw a representation in respect with infos provided by You on the Forum. special Thanks to EdBass. Please let me know if something going wrong, please.Thanks
Beste
Catalin
(http://i59.tinypic.com/2v9rzg6.jpg)
Russian Baltic plywood aprox.0.75".bracing hardwood 1x1", I prefered to put the bracing for baffles outside as it can serve as support for metalic mesh as well.(I have not care too much to preserve the original fabric frame).
The baltic plywood comes in european standard as it is a product made in Europe. 12,15,18,21,24mm are standard dimension which have not equivalence into Imperial system, Also Sunn seems to use another kind of plywood. The russian come now in 13 veneers layers for 18 mm thick - that means 0.7" and not 3/4"(o.75").
I don't find this minor diferences as semnificative as I consider more important to know the quality of plywood which was used. Thanks.
Catalin
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later edit
I think most vulnerable part at this project is assamble where the 45* sheet join the reflex port. Think also Mr Conrad used 0.5" thick sheet just because is more simple to fit the 45* cut with the straight one.Can be used also a 3/4" sheet for the "port flare" instead of 1/2" one and think is justified as time those sheet takes all shocks from speaker.Imagine what is happen with a 300w ,11mm excursion "upgrade"speaker replacement into full throttle.On the other hand don,t know how much the resonances from that sheet comes into sound scenario.
Please, be aware! the port is also restricted by the width of the furring of protection grill. I don't know in this moment what dimension have but can consider to do the baffle from one single pc.just need it.
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One thing you might not be aware of is that many, if not most 15 inch speakers will not fit in a 200S cabinet. The issue is that the original JBL D series speakers were not very deep. Try to fit something else and the magnet assembly hits the 45 degree board before you can get the mounting holes to line up. I've never tried it but an E-140 might not even fit.
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Hello loudthud.
You're right.
Thank you
Catalin
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They will if you front load them. See this post: http://sunnforum.ampage.org/index.php/topic,6170.0.html
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hi, thanks
had some times to start my project.I have no problems to fit the drivers from inside
scaled a litlle bit to acomodate better my drivers parametres to 42x25x15. first impression, honestly, way too big and too heavy for mobile aplications.
(http://i59.tinypic.com/i4epzd.jpg)
Cheers
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That's a whole lot of plywood you have there, looks great but surely weighs a ton. A factory 200S cab is pretty hefty, your oversize replica with the thick plywood must be very cumbersome indeed!
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Hello
playing the bass at low level in my house I have this conclusion in terms of sound regards my project: it is very defined and more important very fast reponse and yes, it is tight. I did not felt any resonances or peaks over entire bass range (my cab has no lining or stufing inside and think it will remain like that).
negatives : it seems it have not enough low end, or anyhow not the low end I waiting for.Think the alignment with my speaker (fane axa 15b-300) it is not quite optimal. I did a experiment restricted partial the port with a book in front and the reponse goes down very sensible but also the bass comportament was modified in a sense it goes longer. In a short I want to keep the manifestation it have now but also to benefit from a litle more low end.
Question: have anyone experienced with different tuning this cab? modifying the port area or restricted the port with foam blocks for diferent alignment than original? do you have any sugestions , please ? Thank you
Cheers
Catalin
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better to contact someone from/familiar with fane and ask for the best design for their drivers.....
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Why no damping in the cabinet? That would be the first thing I would try.
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Why no damping in the cabinet? That would be the first thing I would try.
Hell0,
simply cause I did not felt it need it. the cab manifestantion looks right for my taste as it is,except the low end reponse. Do you think the lining will help, please ?
Thanks
Catalin
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I think pretty much any bass cab should have damping material inside, all of the Sunn cabs came that way from the factory. It can enhance the overall bass response, largely by damping mid and high frequencies and calming structural cabinet vibrations.
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Hello again.
found a pic relative at what seems to be a Sonic 1-40 cabinet. Can someone confirm if this one port solution was what Sunn used for all sonic1-40 model , or was just one version, please? Technicaly speaking is hard for me to understand from this pic what they did it.Maybe someone have a better pic and some dimensions,please. Want to try to build a replica. 200s is definely not for me. I have not 18 anymore.
Thank You.
Best Regards
Catalin
(http://i60.tinypic.com/33ll3b6.jpg)
later edit: at first glance seems they used the same port opening like 200s cab (22.5"x4+"). the opening was limited by 1" furring on the sides (not sure) and 0.75"ply stripe on bottom (and maybe in superior side of port. not visible) to serve as support for grill frame, Then again the opening was restricted by the cutting in the frame -at ca. 18x3" ? judging by what I can large apreciate from this pic. So, in the end is not exactly a half 200s.it is a little bit different. There are also some small wood pieces there like cubes and small 0.5" parts I cannot find any justification - just if the furring stops at top of port and do not fololw entire lengh of sides, till internal bottom of cabinet..think.
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more, some better view
(http://i59.tinypic.com/6pajit.jpg)
again, the front grill looks like part of tuning assambly and also very intresting the lining filled into the vent works for tuning too.
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Some of the Sunn amps like the Sonic I-40 had the smaller cabinet that they came with like the one you show there. It is basically half of a 200S cabinet.
I built myself something similar....I made the width when the cabinet was upright the same width as a 200S head. The height when the cabinet is upright is the same width as a 2000S cabinet, so that when I flip the cabinet I made on its side then a 2000S head will fit on it. The port is along the bottom and is the same width as a 200S cabinet, but the height of the port is half of a 200S cabinet port to keep the same bottom end frequency response. The bottom of the cabinet is done just like an Ampeg SVT cabinet so the back part of the cabinet has an angle cut into it where wheels mount and the cabinet can be rolled around. There are handles on the sides that are the same as a Marshall 4x12 cabinet. It has a JBL E140 in it, and then later I added a couple 6 inch tweeters too that I had Conrad voice a crossover for. I also had to greatly increase the internal support as the cabinet was too loose and would move itself backwards across a garage floor in a loud amp head was on top of it. It was pretty funny actually, but after the internal bracing it is rock solid now and stays where you put it with no cabinet rattles. With the different speaker in it, of course the cabinet sounds different than a 200S cabinet, but it actually sounds really good and I like to record with it. I can provide pics if you want though I don't have internal pics. The cabinet is front loaded btw, and it is filled with lots of damping material too.
Greg
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Hello Greg
I did a scketch from what I understood from this pic. The battens and bottom stopers for grill frame not figured.
(http://i61.tinypic.com/54e9k.jpg)
at this model the "duct" seems to be huge comparative with 200s ca.5.25"inside and ca. 4.75 from front 0.5" furring.anyhow the opening in front frame limit the opening at ca 19"x3.75". The small pieces from bottom are just "stoppers" for front frame in bottom side. These are just mine supposition from what I aproximate from the pic. Some better pics will be wonderfull, please.
I'm very interested by your project as my intention it is not to rebuild a hystorical replica but a more smaler and weightness cabinet with similar comportment as big one.
Thank you.
Cheers
Catalin
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I think that the vent obstruction is just the grill frame rather than an actual oval port. As Greg says, it's pretty much just half of a 200S cab.
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Hello Ed
Could be possible,did not saw how a sunn 1-40 cabinet looks like in my life. I just say what I saw from the pic, and in this pics the frame looks like is builded from plywood board, not from battens and it is routed as can see in a oval shape. Both pics shows the same thing , but maybe are particular versions or maybe another type of cab.I have to ask if can provide some infos regard internal dimension, please. Half of 200s did not fit exactly 24"of 1-40. If the port is half, or even the same size like 200s that means it is a lot of room to acomodate any speaker inside from the back but in truth it is not, as I understand from some topics. Some dimensions are diferent for sure and I'm wonder if regards the upper section or the duct.Thank You for the infos.
Beste
Catalin
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Hello
I did another sketch to see how exactly half size 200s port looks like into this 24" tall cabinet. 5.25"port height seems to fit more accurate. Maybe some of members here have this cab and can do some measurements for community, please. Allready have to receive another speaker BG15C from WGS to do also a comparison with old Fane Axiom I used. Thank You
Cheers
Catalin.
(http://i57.tinypic.com/2hojzie.jpg)
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I think the actual port is somewhere between your two sketches. I've got a Sonic I-40, but probably won't have a chance to open it up until after the holidays.
I have a lot of experience with the WGS driver, and am personally a huge fan. To my ear they are similar to the EVM15L tonally and response wise. You might need to front mount it to get clearance; I'll see if I can try to get one into my Sonic I-40 cab from the back when I open it up.
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I think the actual port is somewhere between your two sketches. I've got a Sonic I-40, but probably won't have a chance to open it up until after the holidays.
I have a lot of experience with the WGS driver, and am personally a huge fan. To my ear they are similar to the EVM15L tonally and response wise. You might need to front mount it to get clearance; I'll see if I can try to get one into my Sonic I-40 cab from the back when I open it up.
Thanks Ed, Great apreciate !
post a new one to have it for reference,Thanks.
Best Regards
Catalin
(http://i57.tinypic.com/10nyxxd.jpg)
I put the hight of port twice cause depends how you are dispose to measure: inside to the bottom or from the beefy 0.5"furring of front
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and another one...
(http://i57.tinypic.com/23ixdvq.jpg)
please note in this one the speaker do not tough the batten to the upper side, it is a bit clearance over there looks like 0.5" or so. that means the production had not consistency over the years maybe and vary a little bit. I can suppose the hight of port between 4.75" and 5.25" inside.and btw you was right regard the opening shape of front gril it is not oval one but just round routed on bottom corners to add some strengh as time the bottom side of frame is suported just in the corners and seems to be done from 0.5" ply board.
Cheers
Catalin
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I can post some pics and details about the cab that I made when I get home. As I said before it is as tall as a 2000S head is wide, and is as wide as a 200S head. The post is the full width of the cabinet, is on the bottom, and is only half as tall as the port in the 2x15. This keeps the resonant frequency the same as the larger cabinet. The back of the cabinet on the bottom however is done like an Ampeg SVT cabinet where it has an angle cut in it, and wheels mounted to it. I don't think I have any interior pics but I know I have some of the outside....so I'll post them in a couple hours.
Greg
EDIT: Ok here are some pics of the cabinet I made for myself. It has silver grille cloth now.
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Hello
Nice one man, congrats. Looks pretty massive to me , I wonder why you considered too loose ? I am very curious if you had possibility to compare with a 200s and what are the diferences in sound ? It is still tight and fast ? have you enough extension in the lows, please ?Thank you
Cheers
Happy Christmas to all !
Catalin
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One thing I want to bring up. Most of the Sunn cabinets I've opened up have significant overspray of the flat black paint on the inside. To me, it suggests that the shell was assembled when it went through the paint line before the tolex was applied. Some of the pics posted by Catalin don't seem to have any overspray on the angled board behind the driver. Are they genuine Sunn cabinets or fakes?
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Hello
Nice one man, congrats. Looks pretty massive to me , I wonder why you considered too loose ? I am very curious if you had possibility to compare with a 200s and what are the diferences in sound ? It is still tight and fast ? have you enough extension in the lows, please ?Thank you
Cheers
Happy Christmas to all !
Catalin
It is certainly not as large as a 200S cabinet, and is really just a little bit bigger than the Sunn 1x15 cabinets that were offered back in the day. I am not sure what you are asking about when you say I considered too loose? Perhaps the sound too loose? I would say in answer to that, no, not at all. In fact, since I am friends with Conrad Sundholm, and he has an LMS system to measure the response of cabinets, and I live across town from him, we measured Isaac's 200S cabinet with the system, and we measured this 1x15 cabinet also. In most respects they are almost identical in their frequency response, even with the different speakers used. (A 200S cabinet uses two JBL D140's or K140's. This one uses an E140 and some 6 inch speakers hooked up to a crossover, though they were not installed when it was tested initially) The 200S cabinet has a little better high end extension, and the lows extend slightly lower also. I would have to look at the plots again to be able to quote numbers however. The reason the cabinet is so close to a 2x15 in sound and performance is that the port is the exact same size as in the 2x15, but is half the height. This allows for the same frequency response out of the port. The cabinet is as tall as a 2000S head is wide, and it is also as deep as a 2000S cabinet, so it has a bit larger internal volume than the vintage Sunn 1x15's, but not quite as much as the vintage Sunn 2x15's. The smaller port controls the bass and makes sure it is not boomy. It is extensively braced internally to stop cabinet rattling, and it also has a lot of foam inside to stop reflections from the square angles. A 200S 2x15 cabinet will be slightly louder than this 1x15 due to having two speakers and more speaker surface area with identical efficiency speakers will result in more volume. Other than that it sounds very much like a Sunn 2x15 without the 6 inch speakers in place. I have those hooked up to a switch on the cabinet now so I can use them or not.
Greg
P.S. I think you are right loudthud about how the vintage cabs were produced. That is how Conrad does his cabinets now too.
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Hello and thanks for answers.
I just can supose the diferences in reponse comes from acoustical coupling in lows (with a gain +6db) and better dispersion in hights when two speakers were used. Those can justify the better "extension" to the "ends". Still wonder if two speakers in different stacked cabs (half volume and port size) have the same reponse as two mounted into one cab, please?
Best Regards
Cheers
Catalin
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Hello and thanks for answers.
I just can supose the diferences in reponse comes from acoustical coupling in lows (with a gain +6db) and better dispersion in hights when two speakers were used. Those can justify the better "extension" to the "ends". Still wonder if two speakers in different stacked cabs (half volume and port size) have the same reponse as two mounted into one cab, please?
Best Regards
Cheers
Catalin
Yeah I am not sure....two speakers in the same cabinet would interact to a certain extent with different frequencies cancelling and others getting boosted. The main thing is that if you decide to use a smaller cabinet, you have to reduce the size of the port to maintain the same frequency response out of the cabinet such as what I did. The question as to whether two cabs with half volume and port size would be the same as one cab can be tested if you have access to the tools to build the cabs and an LMS system to test it. My cab is larger than half size by a bit since the height and depth are the same as a 2000S cabinet. My cabinet also has a different speaker (JBL E140 vs JBL D140 or JBL K140) so the sound is going to be different. My cabinet sounds very good and several people would like to buy it right now for studio use for themselves, but since I use it for that purpose and also for some live use when I don't need as much volume as the large cabinet, or don't want to lug around the large cabinet, then it is useful for me to keep it around.
In some ways I think you are overanalyzing the situation. Build some configuration and see what you think of it. If you don't like it, you can sell it and try again with a different design. THe basic setup sounds good, and if you do it like I did mine, it sounds very close to a 200S, with a slightly different sound due to the different speaker. In the past I tried a D140 in that cabinet and it sounded much like a 200S cabinet with a lower volume due to only one speaker.
Greg
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Hello.
I tried to figure a perspective for a project with vents at half 200s. it looks just like that:
(http://i61.tinypic.com/2da0z9w.jpg)
Beste
Catalin
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I think pretty much any bass cab should have damping material inside, all of the Sunn cabs came that way from the factory. It can enhance the overall bass response, largely by damping mid and high frequencies and calming structural cabinet vibrations.
+1. fiberglass wool lining 2" thick was added.it was very effective.Thanks.
Catalin
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Hello Catalin,
thank you for your nice work. That will help me alot.
I'm planing to build an 115 cab for my Sonic I-40.
Do you have the information about the height of the port?
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Hi,thanks
no. unfortunately I have not the confirmed original dimensions but found a clone project here , maybe can help :http://www.fenderforum.com/forum.html/searchthreadgateway.php?topic_number=749366 (http://www.fenderforum.com/forum.html/searchthreadgateway.php?topic_number=749366) and here : https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.173296412683317.45280.100000088776971&l=e54e472e54 (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.173296412683317.45280.100000088776971&l=e54e472e54)
Cheers
Catalin
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Flex,
In order for the 1x15 cabinet to have the same frequency response of the larger 2x15, you need to make the port half as tall as the 2x15 cabinet like I did on my 1x15 posted above in the pics.
Greg
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Hi!
The project shows the Eminence Legend CB158. They are very different from the originals jbl K140?
Thanks
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Greg, could you give us the dimensions of your cab?
I'm looking at building a similar full range with crossover using a JBL 15" and a JBL 10". I will probably use a circular port rather than a vent as it's a little simpler.
Also, what silver grill cloth did you use? did you manage to find something close to Sunn spec?
thanks
Toby
Some of the Sunn amps like the Sonic I-40 had the smaller cabinet that they came with like the one you show there. It is basically half of a 200S cabinet.
I built myself something similar....I made the width when the cabinet was upright the same width as a 200S head. The height when the cabinet is upright is the same width as a 2000S cabinet, so that when I flip the cabinet I made on its side then a 2000S head will fit on it. The port is along the bottom and is the same width as a 200S cabinet, but the height of the port is half of a 200S cabinet port to keep the same bottom end frequency response. The bottom of the cabinet is done just like an Ampeg SVT cabinet so the back part of the cabinet has an angle cut into it where wheels mount and the cabinet can be rolled around. There are handles on the sides that are the same as a Marshall 4x12 cabinet. It has a JBL E140 in it, and then later I added a couple 6 inch tweeters too that I had Conrad voice a crossover for. I also had to greatly increase the internal support as the cabinet was too loose and would move itself backwards across a garage floor in a loud amp head was on top of it. It was pretty funny actually, but after the internal bracing it is rock solid now and stays where you put it with no cabinet rattles. With the different speaker in it, of course the cabinet sounds different than a 200S cabinet, but it actually sounds really good and I like to record with it. I can provide pics if you want though I don't have internal pics. The cabinet is front loaded btw, and it is filled with lots of damping material too.
Greg
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Greg, could you give us the dimensions of your cab?
I'm looking at building a similar full range with crossover using a JBL 15" and a JBL 10". I will probably use a circular port rather than a vent as it's a little simpler.
Also, what silver grill cloth did you use? did you manage to find something close to Sunn spec?
thanks
Toby
Hi Toby,
When viewed as in the pics I posted above, the width is the same as a 200S head, the height is the same as the width of a 2000S head, and the depth is the same as a 2000S cabinet. This allows the cabinet to work with a 200S head when upright or work with a 2000S head when flipped on its side. So it is 24" wide when upright, 30" tall, and 15" deep. The port is half as tall as a 200S or 2000S cabinet, and it is the full width of the cabinet just like the Sunn cabinets. The back of the cabinet is angled on the bottom like an Ampeg SVT cabinet and the port just follows that around into the center area of the cabinet. The back of the speaker is baffled just like a Sunn 200S or 2000S cabinet. The port isn't that hard to do but a round one would be easier. Just be sure to size the port so it is the correct size to get the frequency response you want.
I added those small 6 inch speakers with a crossover network that Conrad made for me, but it is a bit harsh with those, likely due to the speaker choice. I may try some other speakers one day, but for now I use it with those disconnected and just the 15" JBL E140 speaker. Those speakers are heavy but they sound good. You could likely get a nice sound with some of the Eminence offerings too, or buy a used JBL like I did.
The silver grille cloth on the cabinet now is just the Fender stuff. It looks way better than the oxblood did, though it doesn't look as nice as the old style grille cloth that is on my Sunn 2000S cabinet. Unfortunately that stuff is not available anywhere anymore.
Greg
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Thanks for the dimensions, Greg
I already got the speakers and I'm working with the guys over at the JBL forum to tweak the dimensions and porting just right for those drivers.
By the way, for others here's a great source for alternative vintage style grill cloth, although the minimum order is a bit high for a single cabinet build.
https://acousticalsolutions.com/product/acoustone-amplifier-grille-cloth/ (https://acousticalsolutions.com/product/acoustone-amplifier-grille-cloth/)
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Let us know how it works out when you get it all done!
Greg