Author Topic: 115 S cab with CTS white dust cap speaker.  (Read 4688 times)

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Offline bigobassman

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115 S cab with CTS white dust cap speaker.
« on: April 17, 2014, 09:13:59 pm »
I got this yesterday.  Mid 70's 115 S cab.  It's labeled for the Sunn Transducer speaker, but had this instead.  A CTS number 13-0040C with white dust cap, bronze frame and round magnet from the 20th week of 1978.  Everything else appears stock and correct.  Any chance this speaker was from SUNN?  (Once again, I've loaded pics to photobucket, but again, can't get them to post here.)  Thanks!
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Offline Isaac

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Re: 115 S cab with CTS white dust cap speaker.
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2014, 08:03:15 pm »
I could be wrong, but my guess is that the CTS is a replacement driver. I don't recall Sunn ever using them.
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Offline bigobassman

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Re: 115 S cab with CTS white dust cap speaker.
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2014, 09:15:39 pm »
Thanks Isaac.  Looks like a Vega speaker was the top optional available for this cab.  Any idea which Vega was used then?  While I'm happy with the CTS sound, the purist side of me would be interested in trying to locate a "correct" speaker for the cab.
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Offline Isaac

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Re: 115 S cab with CTS white dust cap speaker.
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2014, 12:21:16 pm »
IIRC, options were S for the Sunn Transducer, M for the Sunn Magna driver, and V for the Cerwin-Vega. No idea which CV driver was used.
Isaac

Offline EdBass

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Re: 115 S cab with CTS white dust cap speaker.
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2014, 08:48:05 pm »
I think the CV in the "V" 15" cab was the M 154, rated at 200 watts. Cerwin Vega had a flurry of MI OEM activity in the early 70's, also providing drivers for Fender and Vox.

Offline bigobassman

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Re: 115 S cab with CTS white dust cap speaker.
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2014, 09:45:59 pm »
After much research and discussion with the Speaker Doctor in Charlotte, I'm going to summit that the EV used in this cab was the EVM15B.  I have found several, and the earlier design showing 200 watts would be the correct one for my mid 70's Sunn 115 S cab.  Someone tell me anything to prove or disprove me. Thanks.  Oren.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 08:11:21 am by bigobassman »
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Offline EdBass

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Re: 115 S cab with CTS white dust cap speaker.
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2014, 10:57:11 am »
I certainly wouldn't want to argue with a speaker "doctor", but...
The "V" stood for Vega, not Voice.
Sunn used Cerwin Vega drivers, not Electro Voice drivers in the premium (115V, 215V) models of the 115 and 215 S/M/V cabs.

The 115/215 "S" models all had the Sunn Tranducer drivers, which were either CTS manufactured or later manufactured by Sunn themselves; unless they were custom ordered with something else, and those very few custom ordered cabs were often for endorsement deals.
Again, while I have no doubts that the good "doctor" is very knowledgable, and although it's within the realm of possibility that it was OEM loaded with a EVM15B, your 115S cab very likely left the factory with a Sunn Transducer in it.

The EVM15B would be a good choice IMO, although as far as Electro Voice I personally prefer the EVM15L or EV SRO for their tighter bottom end for bass guitar in "S" series Sunn cabs.
However I'm sure the EVM15B would work just dandy!

Offline Walt-Dogg

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Re: 115 S cab with CTS white dust cap speaker.
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2014, 01:00:24 pm »
Not entirely sure stock Sunn Transducer speakers were CTS or Eminence (Ed and Issac seem to be conflicting, and I've been under the impression they were Eminence not CTS to keep costs down, like Ampeg). However, Issac is totally correct about the Sunn Magna and the Cerwin-Vega being the proper upgrades for your cabinet. That being said, I don't know anything about the Magna or the C-V. As for EV speakers, I've only seen them in later, Hartzell era cabinets. EVM15B Series II (8 ohms, 200 watts) specifically. I had a pair in my 215B, good speakers and supposedly not any different than the originals. Also, correct me if I'm wrong; but I don't think a speaker from 1978 would be in a early-mid 70s cabinet stock, by 1978 the 115S is most likely out of production.
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Offline bigobassman

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Re: 115 S cab with CTS white dust cap speaker.
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2014, 08:11:32 pm »
Thanks guys - EXACTLY the input that I'm looking for!
"You can't have too much bass."

Offline EdBass

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Re: 115 S cab with CTS white dust cap speaker.
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2014, 12:41:06 am »
Not entirely sure stock Sunn Transducer speakers were CTS or Eminence (Ed and Issac seem to be conflicting, and I've been under the impression they were Eminence not CTS to keep costs down, like Ampeg). However, Issac is totally correct about the Sunn Magna and the Cerwin-Vega being the proper upgrades for your cabinet. That being said, I don't know anything about the Magna or the C-V. As for EV speakers, I've only seen them in later, Hartzell era cabinets. EVM15B Series II (8 ohms, 200 watts) specifically. I had a pair in my 215B, good speakers and supposedly not any different than the originals. Also, correct me if I'm wrong; but I don't think a speaker from 1978 would be in a early-mid 70s cabinet stock, by 1978 the 115S is most likely out of production.

I don't think it's a necessarily a conflict really.
Many industries cluster in a given area. For example; there is (or maybe more accurately "was") an exceptionally large number of major RV manufacturers in Elkhart Indiana, the same with tool and die manufacturers in Cincinnati, Ohio, furniture and fabric manufacturers in the Carolinas, automotive in Detroit, etc.
Because of this, industry specific parts source suppliers, industry specific experienced workforce, and the other attendant resources also cluster in those areas, making logistics much easier for all of them.

In Kentucky, particularly the far west corner of Kentucky, there is/was such a "cluster" of speaker manufacturers and the attendant resources. Both Eminence and CTS were headquartered there, and in the 50's, 60's and even into the 80's (until inexpensive Asian imports took over that market) most of the throwaway speakers in radios, tape recorders, and "you name it" came from there.
They also made private labeled higher grade speakers for the majority of US MI manufacturers like Acoustic, Ampeg, Leslie, and... Sunn.
CTS was first, Eminence was an off shoot started by ex CTS employees. They stayed friendly, there was enough business for everybody, it wasn't a "cut throat" situation, and who actually made what from about 1966 to 1986 or so can get REAL hazy; they all bought magnets, baskets, etc. from the same suppliers, and sometimes even one would build speakers for the other's contracts. Even the manufacturers code stamped on the speakers gets convoluted.
This is a fairly common practice in the other industries I mentioned above also.

So, the early Sunn transducer labeled driver was basically also (just to name a few) the Leslie 122/147 woofer, the Ampeg B15 woofer, and very likely the Acoustic driver in bigo's cabinet, and could actually be an Eminence or CTS.

Now, here's the next source of confusion on this specific subject. At some point Hartzell started building their own speakers, and one of their facilities was in Kentucky to take advantage of that "cluster" thing I spoke about, buying parts from the same sources as the other guys and cooperating in the "scratch back" manufacturing atmosphere that often exists in these "clusters".

So what is a "Sunn Transducer"? Got me, depends on too many variable to pigeon hole it!
I suppose it doesn't really matter, aside from some cosmetic difference the specs were consistent from builder to builder so the performance between them should fit in a narrow window.

As a side note, manufacturers of high end premium drivers; JBL, EV, Cerwin Vega, used proprietary components and specific construction techniques, unlike the all for one, one for all practices of the more pedestrian builders.
This concept is also true of "premium" products of many other industries.


Offline EdBass

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Re: 115 S cab with CTS white dust cap speaker.
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2014, 12:46:17 am »
Also, correct me if I'm wrong; but I don't think a speaker from 1978 would be in a early-mid 70s cabinet stock, by 1978 the 115S is most likely out of production.

Excellent point!
A 1978 speaker certainly isn't OEM in a 115S...

Offline bigobassman

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Re: 115 S cab with CTS white dust cap speaker.
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2014, 08:01:30 pm »
Again, thanks guys.  Excellent speaker informational EdBass!

I'm now back to the search for the identification of the model/number/description for the "correct" Cerwin Vega upgrade for this 115S cab.  My purist side sure is a curse sometimes!
"You can't have too much bass."

Offline Isaac

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Re: 115 S cab with CTS white dust cap speaker.
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2014, 11:56:42 pm »
If you're truly a purist, then no Cerwin-Vega is correct for a 115S. Instead, CV's were used in  the 115V.

Of course, once you put a Cerwin-Vega in a 115S, it becomes a 115V in all but nameplate!
Isaac

Offline bigobassman

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Re: 115 S cab with CTS white dust cap speaker.
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2014, 12:24:46 pm »
I understand Isaac.  There are many times that I'm a total purist.  Other times, being close works for me too.  I always check for the upgrade speaker in older cabs, since they generally are superior, and many times way superior to the standard.  I love nothing better than to use my vintage gear and it sound as good as, if not better than, new or newer stuff.  In the case of this cab, my purist side would be satisfied with the upgrade CV speaker, even though, as you point out, it would make the identification tag totally wrong.  This puts me back in the position of determining the identification of the correct CV speaker that was available for this "could be" 115V cab.  On the other hand, the EVM-15B that I've located is period correct, and even though never available in Sunn,  I would consider it as a good substitute for the upgrade speaker.  I've also heard that the Eminence Beta 15 A is a super substitute in this cab.  So, at this point, I'm drifting from one possibility to another for this project.  I'd still love to know the correct CV for this cab so that I could at least try and locate one. 

Again, I appreciate all of the help and input from my bros at Sunn.
"You can't have too much bass."