The sunn Forum
Sunn Musical Equipment => Q & A => Topic started by: John Matrix on May 06, 2010, 12:29:10 pm
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What are the real differences in sound between the 1st gen model T and the 2nd gen with the red knobs? And if anyone wants to bring up the Fender ones too go ahead. I've never played out of any of them so I am just curious.
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The fender Model T, although not a real Sunn, is a good high quality amp, it runs on 4 6L6's and 4 12X7s or maybe 6n8as can't remember. The circuitry is way different so that will make a huge difference in sound/Tone. I played on one for along time. I own a 1st gen and a 2nd gen. and I personally think the only difference in sound/tone is the 2nd gen has a mid select switch with 3 different options. I have not been able to play both side by side to see if there is really a true difference other than the mid boost switch mentioned. My 1st gen is getting a out put transformer replaced and when that is done I taking in my 2nd gen to have the tubes re biased or replaced. I know other people on here own multiple sunn model ts so they maybe more help, when it comes to comparing the 1st and 2nd gens. after owning a Fender model T. I would definitely say that vintage model ts sound way better. way louder too.
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this is good info i think:
http://www.angelfire.com/blog/sunnmodelt/index.html
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The first Gen Model T's (1969 - 1973?) used a bassman/plexi style tone stack. The Second Gen Model T's 1974-1978 I believe incorperated a mid freq. boost switch and a baxandall (I think it's called) Tone stack, a blue & white wire from the master volume pot which reduced the volume once rolled past 7 or 8, and a dual gang master volume pot. The Red Knobs weren't introduced until 75 I believe. They had a model (1974) that was nick named the "Transitional T" because it was the 2nd gen Amp, with the old outfittings (gray knobs, the smaller logo, etc.)
The second gen was more popular among bass players and didn't sound exactly like the first gen, although there are mods you can do to a second gen (which mine has) that get it near the First gen specs. I think the 2nd gen catches a lot of flack, but with or without the mods, it still sounds amazing. The original model T's have some of the best, monsterous, throaty tones I've ever heard. I pair it with a Sunn 412L (oversized/bass cab) and it sounds amazing, sounds like there's a monster in the cab breathing the riffs out.
As far as the Fender T, I couldn't tell you much, but from what I heard and what django said, that pretty much sums it, they're two different monsters, although the Older T's are way louder. I've also heard the Fender T's are very noisy on the gain channel and don't handle pedals too well.. Just heresay though. Someone correct me if my information is screwed up.
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The first Gen Model T's (1969 - 1973?) used a bassman/plexi style tone stack.
I'm not nearly as familiar with the Hartzell era as I am with the Sundholm era, but I'm pretty sure that there wasn't a Model T until 1973 at the very earliest. I'm not sure that this "first Gen" of which you speak actually exists; at least I can't find any documentation that it existed. Of course, there were probably a couple of prototypes of the reworked 4 X 6550 chassis that became the Model T around before 1973, but I don't think you could buy one until 1973.
AFAIK the Sunn tube model lineup was pretty much three basic circuits until 1972, the 2 X EL34, 2 X KT88/6550, and 4 X KT88/6550. The EL34 amps went away in 1970, and the remaining two circuits were SS rectified and output rating was increased. By 1972, the entire tube amp spectrum was reduced to a bass and guitar version of the 2 X 6550 (190B, 190L), and a bass and guitar version of the 4 X 6550 amp (350B, 350L).
If you think about it, it wouldn't made sense to have a Model T in 1969-1972; it would have been counterproductive for them to market a different 4 X 6550 that would compete with their existing 1000/2000 series amps, particularly when the trend for all amplifiers was heading towards "all transistor all the time" like it was in the early 70's.
I think the Model T was a way to cut down the remaining four tube amps (190L,190B,350L,350B) to just one multipurpose amp for guitar and bass for 1973.
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I found a brochure from the first model T, unfortunately it's too small to read.
http://www.richbriere.com/images/1972cat2.gif
Hmm, interesting. Perhaps I am mistaken. Yeah i do remember seeing some from 73 (without the mid select), I thought I heard some mention of a 69-72 before, maybe I just brain farted
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Okay so upon reading the Sunn Catalog thread, I discovered there was a "Sunn Model T BASS" amp being sold and a "Sunn Model T lead" head being sold... Perhaps the Lead head was the amp without the mid select and the bass head was the one with the mid select (being a lot of bass players prefer those ones, it would make since too since with certain gear Bass lose their Mid range a lot). If that's the case, that would support what you said. Very interesting, I learn more everyday about these amazing amps... BTW, a little off subject, can anyone school me on the 2000S?
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The Model T "bass" and "lead" designations simply referred to combinations with bass or guitar speaker cabinets.
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This is the way I think it was: the Model T head was used for both bass and guitar. The only difference between the Model T bass amp and the Model T guitar amp was what you plugged into it and what speakers you ran it to. In that time period, Sunn didn't designate speakers as being for guitar or bass, either.
The first generation Model T had no mid select switch, and the tone controls were as mike_sims says. As a bass player, I didn't care for the second generation T because the mid boost was always on. It could be reduced or increased, but not turned off. My T is a second generation transitional amp, with no red knobs or logo. I have cut the blue/white wire and modded the mid boost circuit so that 0 is off. I like it a lot better now.
I haven't taken a close look at the tone circuits, but I suspect that it does not have the Baxandall tone controls, based on their response. They sound as though they're all boost, no cut. So I think that I have a very early second generation Model T.
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here's a model T listed as 72.. could be incorrect though... Says it's all original but I think it's a new case (with the handle on the top)
http://cgi.ebay.com/72-Sunn-Model-T-amp-amplfier-first-generation-vintage-/190395976962?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c547c0d02
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Hello
I buy a model T there in the white buttons and a selector for the medium. Is a second generation?
here are the pictures
http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110519175338&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
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Yep, that's a 2nd Gen. The knob color isn't really important; the mid selector switch is the telling feature of 2nd Generation Model T's. I'd imagine this is an earlier 2nd Gen.
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Ok and there to really be a big difference between the two? I have seen it change the version 2 release 1. one of you has already tried?
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Ok and there to really be a big difference between the two? I have seen it change the version 2 release 1. one of you has already tried?
Do you mean changing the 2nd generation T back to the first generation? I have done some of that with mine, and I like it much better. I have not done anything with the tone controls, though.
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Yes, if you any information to modified the 2 to the first, i'm interesting.
Thanks Isaac
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With the changes, is what really happens to have a 2nd generation as a 1? the same sound?
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Hi Clodo,
I don't think you'll get exactly the same tone with the mods, but it will certainly be closer, and even an un-modded 2nd Generation Model T is an excellent amp.
Some folks prefer the 2nd Gen sound, so I wouldn't be in a rush to modify the amp.
Someone already posted this link, but if you missed it: http://www.angelfire.com/blog/sunnmodelt/
This is THE resource for 2nd Gen mods.
Cheers,
James
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Hello James
I read the blog, thank you for the connection. In the blog he says gen1 sounds better ;-). I will Retube and repair mine (a 2 nd generation with the logo button and white) and listen as it sounds.
I live in Switzerland and these amps are rare or even nonexistent.
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I think many guitarists DO prefer the First Generation Model T. If I had a 2nd Gen, at the very least, I'd go ahead with the Master Volume modification.
Bassists may prefer the 2nd Gen because of the Mid-control and the Ampeg similarities. If you're solely or primarily a guitarist, then I'd certainly consider some of the mods suggested by JoeArthur.
Plenty of people are content with an un-modded 2nd Gen, but, for what it's worth, I haven't known anyone who has regretted making the mods.
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With the changes, is what really happens to have a 2nd generation as a 1? the same sound?
I can't say. I've never had nor played through a 1st gen Model T.
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As a bass player, I was never happy with the 2nd gen T. The mid boost gave it a honky sound, even turned all the way down. So I did the master volume mod and the mid boost mod, and now I love it. Truly a great amp.
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I'm a guitarist, maybe I should try to find a first generation? I'll have to repair mine. Thank you for your help
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Isaac, can you explain the changes you made on your amp,
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Keep in mind, you won't have the exact same sound. The mid boost switch will still be on unless mids are rolled to Zero (with the mod), and after all, they use two (2) different tone stacks
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Isaac, can you explain the changes you made on your amp,
Not easily. I cut the white wire with the blue stripe, and I connected the 47mfd capacitor to make the mid boost zero when the control is fully counter-clockwise. I realize that, by themselves, those two statements don't make much sense. The link to the instructions I used have been posted twice already, but here it is again: http://www.angelfire.com/blog/sunnmodelt/ The problem is that the illustrations seem to be gone, making the detailed instructions difficult to decipher. I don't know that I can help you beyond that. I could if I were wherever you are, but if that's not here in Portland, we're out of luck.
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this doesn't mean anything to anybody but me-i have a lot of Models Ts from the 70s and i play the sludge louder than anybody-i use 1st & 2nd generation amps interchangebly because they both reach an incredible db level and as the db level goes up the hz level goes further down and only these old SUNNS do the job for me.
your mileage will not vary
stan in san fran
http://stanosaur.com/
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Although I like what Stanner does, and he has a REALLY impressive rig, I wouldn't say that "your mileage won't vary" between the 1st Gen and 2nd Gen. Tonally, they are noticeably different. It's totally a matter of taste which you may prefer. I like both for different reasons. Though, if your goal is a massive wall of sludge like what SunnO))) and Stanner create, I think both 1st Gen and 2nd Gen will get the job done with negligible differences.
Really, playing both amps is the only way to know which one best suits your needs. If any of you are within driving distance of Baltimore, MD, you're certainly welcome to come by and give both of them a test drive and decide for yourselves.
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I need a damn first Gen to keep my second Gen company. How do you run two of these together like Greg Anderson usually does?
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/81/260854863_d229f5dec2.jpg
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As far as I understand it, you just run a cable from the output of one amp into the input of the other.
I'm not sure if the differences between 1st Gen and 2nd Gen pose any probelms for running them together. I was wondering that myself. Anyone have a answer to that?
Though, instead of slaving the two heads, if you have multiple cabs, you might just want to run each head into a separate cab with an a/b box so you can run both heads simultaneously but still be able to tweak each one individually for a more personalized, nuanced sound.
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The dudes in Sunn have a ABY pedal with multiple outs. They plug one guitar into the contraption, then run 4 lines out of it into 4 different fuzz pedals, then into 4 full stacks. They sound huge because they play all the amps individually, not just have one guitar signal reproduced through 4 stacks, ya know?? Hope that helps
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That helps, mate. Thank you.
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yeah the ABY method makes sense, "maximum volume yields maximum results". They have 8 model T's now if I remember correctly from watching a recent video... I need to go to one of their shows just to bask in the tone glory, what a wet dream for a fan of Model T's
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I was lucky enough to open for them one time. I chatted with them a little bit about it. I asked Greg Anderson if he was into the reissue Model T at all (that's what I have) and he replied, "I don't know. I've never played one."
Kinda made me laugh. I know it's a very different amp but I figured he'd at least have checked it out!
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1)
I saw SunnO))) a few years back at Baltimore's (in)famous Ottobar, and it was obviously loud, but I didn't truly comprehend how loud it was until I left the venue. SunnO)))'s set was winding down when I left, and I could still hear every note when I got to my car which was parked 2 blocks away. Hell, I could still hear every note once I was in my car with the windows up. And that was back when they "only" used 4 Model T's.
2)
As for the Fender Model T, popular opinion be damned, I think it's an amazing DOOM machine. It's unfortunate that it's forever stuck in the shadow of the original Model T; if it was judged on its own merits, I think people would be jumping on the bandwagon. Who knows, maybe they will one day.
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I've never played a Fender one, but I've heard positive things about them. They're two different monsters in their own. I think the reason people were upset about the reissue is because they were expecting the all mighty original model T and got something different, I can understand.
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Yes I certainly agree that the Fender Model T is a top notch amp. I know lots of people complain about the hiss of the gain channel.
Mine is noisy as hell but I don't really care too much about it. I like how it's very volatile and there's lots of noise and hiss combined with the massive sound. I've never played an original Model T but I've certainly heard them. Seems like the main draw is the massively loud, clear clean sound which is very receptive to pedals. The reissue is kind of a one trick pony I think. It's got a killer gain channel but the clean is nothing to write home about. It's not that great with pedals for fuzz or distortion pedals IMO, although the Russian Circles guitarist now ONLY uses the clean channel of the reissue T and gets all his gain sounds from pedals, so maybe I don't know how to use this thing.
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Yeah, a lot of the more modern amps or amp's with a dedicated gain channel in general get really nasty and noisy when ran with a pedal (on the gain channel). But sometimes the clean channel doesn't sound as great with a pedal either, there's ways around it. I have a Marshall JCM 2000 (which I now hate) that has Three (yes... sigh... 3) channels. A Gain oops... sorry Marshall... "CRUNCH" channel, a "lead" channel and "clean". It's taken some tampering to get it to sound good (ie. lowering the preamp volume on the amp, or lowering the distortion level of the pedal).
That's why I just use the ol' Sunn now... :mrgreen:
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I run connector cables from 1st gen to 2nd gen model ts and vice versa w/ no discernable change in sound.
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I'm not sure if the differences between 1st Gen and 2nd Gen pose any probelms for running them together. I was wondering that myself. Anyone have a answer to that?
I run connector cables from 1st gen to 2nd gen model ts and vice versa w/ no discernable change in sound.
Thanks for answering my question. I was hoping you'd chime in. After seeing your rig, I figured you'd be the guy to ask.
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I've seen pictures, russian circles guitarist, plays on a v1 and v2 :
here the link .
http://www.guitariste.com/forums/pedales-effets-homestudio,le-materiel-des-guitaristes-pro-s-sommaire-en-page-1,76579,10450.html
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I'm glad he finally found some original SUNN Ts! last few times thru town here in SF he was using the Fenders :-(
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I'm glad he finally found some original SUNN Ts! last few times thru town here in SF he was using the Fenders :-(
Actually he IS using two of the reissues!!!
My band opened for them here in Greece and we had a conversation about Sunn. He told me that he didn’t like the original Model Ts…
The pix from the link are probably from their European tour (France maybe??) so the rig might be “rental”!
Anyways great band and great rig whatsoever !!!!
:-D
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Yeah I was assuming those were rentals too. Surprising to hear he doesn't like the original T's.
I know he loves the reissues because he is the one that got me into them. I borrowed it for a few band practices and sold my 5150 immediately.
I'm surprised they were able to haul the Emperor stuff all the way from Chicago unless those are European "rentals" too
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Yeah I was assuming those were rentals too. Surprising to hear he doesn't like the original T's.
I know he loves the reissues because he is the one that got me into them. I borrowed it for a few band practices and sold my 5150 immediately.
I'm surprised they were able to haul the Emperor stuff all the way from Chicago unless those are European "rentals" too
Nice!!! :-D
And I guess the cabs are rentals too... Nice to find those in Europe! hehe.
By the way in Greece Mike played with my rig and I was very proud of it!! :evil:
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I tried the sunn model T with my guitar last night. I love to clean it with this amp, and when it is crunch it is really fat mmmh ....but I'm always curious to know if the V1 is better. :roll:
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Yeah I was assuming those were rentals too. Surprising to hear he doesn't like the original T's.
I know he loves the reissues because he is the one that got me into them. I borrowed it for a few band practices and sold my 5150 immediately.
I'm surprised they were able to haul the Emperor stuff all the way from Chicago unless those are European "rentals" too
Nice!!! :-D
And I guess the cabs are rentals too... Nice to find those in Europe! hehe.
By the way in Greece Mike played with my rig and I was very proud of it!! :evil:
Yeah that's very awesome.
I guess the Emperor stuff is going worldwide now. Tons of Chicago bands and even some big touring bands use them. When I saw Sunn0))) play about a year ago they had some Emperor cabs on tour with them (Dekalb, Il show).
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That is approximately one month as my model of V2 to new lamps. With the selector in the medium 3K for the guitar is really perfect I think. After discussion with someone to have the 2 m-as he reads the v1 is a bit darker and more v2 little brighter and clearer.
Personally V2 is already dark for me :evil: :-)
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I return to the question, now I have two V2, 2 does not sound like it. Is there a huge difference with a V1?
I'm playing guitar
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By V2 I'm assuming you mean the Red KNob model with the Mid Select switch?
1974 (1st gen/v1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbnyXFb0gOM
1975 (2nd gen/v2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI25pLvPW1U
the V1/1st Gen doesn't get as dirty as the 2nd Gen, (a pedal was used in the video of the V1/first gen). Sorry if you were looking for something on the clean side :-P
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Thanks, here we can hear the clean of a V1 :evil:
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Hello, I received a model T V1, it is reviewed and Retube, it sounds as strong as my other Model T, What can it come? the capacitor is also changed ....
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Hello, I have now 2 Model T for V1 and V2. My version 2 is a little more nasilard. But the two are very good, although radically different. By cons do you think there a difference between the first V2 with gray buttons and one with red buttons?