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Sunn Musical Equipment => DIY => Topic started by: Greg_M on August 30, 2010, 12:10:33 pm

Title: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: Greg_M on August 30, 2010, 12:10:33 pm
I've got a drawing someone did of a cutaway of a 200S cabinet, but it has no dimensions.
Has anyone ever measured one up and made a construction print or cad file?
If I can't find one, maybe I could build one.

Is the covering material still available from somewhere?
How about the grill cloth?
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: D.M.N. on August 30, 2010, 04:06:40 pm
I recommend contacting Conrad. That's what I did when I built my 2000s cabinet. He emailed me an entire materials list and diagrams, for small fee. He can also provide the grill cloth, tolex, corners in 2- or 3- design, and proper casters.
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: Greg_M on August 30, 2010, 04:19:55 pm
Forgive my ignorance but...

Conrad?
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: HRobert on August 30, 2010, 04:48:22 pm
Forgive my ignorance but...

Conrad?

Oh lord!!! The Sunn gods will smite thee dead in your tracks for asking that question!!!!  Conrad Sundholm is T-H-E founder of Sunn Amps. 
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: CLD on August 30, 2010, 04:50:18 pm
Greg, take a look at the forum's home page and click on the category labeled "Conrad." You can learn a little more about him there, too.
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: Greg_M on August 30, 2010, 07:26:08 pm
Consider me smited  :-D
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: Greg_M on August 31, 2010, 01:25:19 pm
Lets see if we can put together some dimensions for the 200S cabinet

(http://www.muellersatomics.com/random/Sunn_200_S.jpg)

Please give actual cabinet dimensions and not with casters or feet etc

A  Width
B  Height
C  Depth
D  Port Opening Height
E  Port Depth (from the front of the speaker mounting board to where it turns to go up and down)
F  Length of the two "wings"
G  Angle of the "wings"
H  Distance between the tip of the wings and the inside of the back panel


The Red "divider board" (wasn't there so I had to draw it in)


The next time someone has their's apart, maybe they can grab some of these dimensions and I will CAD up a drawing for us all to use

 :wink:
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: HRobert on September 01, 2010, 05:42:18 am
Lets see if we can put together some dimensions for the 200S cabinet

(http://www.muellersatomics.com/random/Sunn_200_S.jpg)

Please give actual cabinet dimensions and not with casters or feet etc

A  Width
B  Height
C  Depth
D  Port Opening Height
E  Port Depth (from the front of the speaker mounting board to where it turns to go up and down)
F  Length of the two "wings"
G  Angle of the "wings"
H  Distance between the tip of the wings and the inside of the back panel


The Red "divider board" (wasn't there so I had to draw it in)


The next time someone has their's apart, maybe they can grab some of these dimensions and I will CAD up a drawing for us all to use

 :wink:

Greg,  I can give you some basics and perhaps someone with one of these cabs can give you more specifics....or you can use proprotional measurements.  The cab - without casters - is 40" high (B), 24" wide (A), and 15" deep (C).  the wood is 3/4" ply.

Also remember that the cabinet's horn design ( two wings as you call them ) was for a JBL D-140 ( a K-140 will fit also ) but other speakers may be too deep or possibly the magnet assembly too wide.  I know that a JBL E-140 won't fit because of the size of the magnet structure.

Rob
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: Greg_M on September 01, 2010, 08:06:04 am
Thanks Rob
I have found one basket case D104F and will have it reconed.
One more to go.

I have started the cad drawing with your helpful dimensions.
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: EdBass on September 01, 2010, 11:56:49 am
It just so happens that I have a 200S cab apart. I bought it from a guy who was going to make a project out of it, disassembled it, and then lost all of the hardware.
I'll get the missing measurements, however it's currently in a different zip code than I am, and...

It's in a chipboard road case buried in "row three" in one of my storage areas, a work bench and two rows further from the door than the easy access "gear I may need in a hurry" row pictured;

(http://i626.photobucket.com/albums/tt341/EdBass/DSC00066.jpg)

I need to go there pick up a couple of the JBL monitors to use this weekend, I'll try to get there early enough to dig it out and measure it while I'm there.

It would be really cool to have an accurate CAD of a 200S cab for reference.
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: Greg_M on September 01, 2010, 12:20:19 pm
Nice collection!    :-D
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: HRobert on September 01, 2010, 04:37:24 pm
EdBass.  Hey guy, why don't you go out and buy some more equipment.  There are places on your floor where one can still walk :-D
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: ROCKETBRO2 on September 01, 2010, 05:01:58 pm
I like how he knows the location of it like he has a pirate map for his gear.
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: HRobert on September 01, 2010, 05:05:31 pm
Thanks Rob
I have found one basket case D104F and will have it reconed.
One more to go.

I have started the cad drawing with your helpful dimensions.

Greg,  When I was looking for 1960's D-130's for my 230B Sentura II clone cabs I found that they were very expensive - even the baskets went for a premium.  I bought 4, 1970's "K" series, and am very, very happy with the sound.  Physically the frames and the magnet bell of the K's look exactly the same as the "D", except they're black instead of grey, and I think that the connecting posts are a little different.  There were a couple of improvements in the motor design from the "D" to the "K" series; the gap is a couple thousandths" wider and the K's had the start of what JBL called "Field Focused Geometry" that was prevelant in the "E" series.  Also the cone has a cloth surround as opposed to paper as in the "D" series.    The frequency response of the K-140 is the same as the D-140; 40-2500 Hz, but it handles more power; 150 watts RMS as opposed to 100 - 125 W for the "D".  Some guitar people I've talked to swear that the paper surround cone sounds better than the cloth surround cone...but I can't tell the difference.  maybe that's because I play keyboards and not guitar or bass.

Rob
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: CLD on September 01, 2010, 05:46:40 pm
I have a K-140 in my Kustom Charger combo and it sounds really nice.
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: Greg_M on September 01, 2010, 06:15:32 pm
Greg,  When I was looking for 1960's D-130's for my 230B Sentura II clone cabs I found that they were very expensive - even the baskets went for a premium.  I bought 4, 1970's "K" series, and am very, very happy with the sound.  Physically the frames and the magnet bell of the K's look exactly the same as the "D", except they're black instead of grey, and I think that the connecting posts are a little different.  There were a couple of improvements in the motor design from the "D" to the "K" series; the gap is a couple thousandths" wider and the K's had the start of what JBL called "Field Focused Geometry" that was prevelant in the "E" series.  Also the cone has a cloth surround as opposed to paper as in the "D" series.    The frequency response of the K-140 is the same as the D-140; 40-2500 Hz, but it handles more power; 150 watts RMS as opposed to 100 - 125 W for the "D".  Some guitar people I've talked to swear that the paper surround cone sounds better than the cloth surround cone...but I can't tell the difference.  maybe that's because I play keyboards and not guitar or bass.

Rob

Well that opens up the field even more!
I'll keep my eyes open for one of those as well
Thanks
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: HRobert on September 02, 2010, 05:43:52 am
Greg,

Check ebay, I believe that there is at least one K-140 on there.

Rob
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: EdBass on September 02, 2010, 08:58:21 am
As far as OEM cones and motors, I think the K's are my personal favorite AlNiCo JBLs. The best balance of power handling vs. sensitivity and tone IMO. I have a pair in this 2000S rig, and they rock.

(http://i626.photobucket.com/albums/tt341/EdBass/Sunn2000S02.jpg)

Compared side by side with a D140 loaded 2000S cab the cab is a little tighter on the bottom than the D's and less prone to "farting" when you get ambitious with the volume or bass knobs. Of course, like most things it's a tradeoff; none of the old AlNiCos can touch modern drivers when it comes to power handling, and IMO none of the modern drivers can touch the old drivers when it comes to pure tone.
But, I digress...
For this 200S project it would be sacrilegious to even consider anything except for an AlNiCo JBL. Besides, your options are physically limited. Because of the porting there is very little room for magnets when you rear load the drivers in a 200S cab.
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: D.M.N. on September 02, 2010, 12:36:11 pm
I'll weigh in for K-140s. I don't think you can really go wrong with them, they're just great speakers. I have them loaded in my 2000s cab, and they are just fantastic: not muddy or boomy, just tight and BIG sounding, quite clear. I think mine cost $125 each? Which I think is a great investment, compared to buying current production speakers. I looked around for other options similar to the JBLs, and US Speaker recommends BEYMA 15MI100, but those are $230, so I'll stick with my old JBLs, thanks.


Also, EdBass............everytime I see that picture I die a little on the inside.......from envy.....and GAS. It's all so CLEAN.
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: EdBass on September 02, 2010, 12:49:52 pm
Also, EdBass............everytime I see that picture I die a little on the inside.......from envy.....and GAS. It's all so CLEAN.

Thats a flattering picture, like the fuzzy focus effect that aging personalities sometimes use. Up close she's a little "rough around the edges".

Forum memeber johnK has the cleanest collection of Sunn, Ampegs and other "to die for" gear I've ever seen. His stuff makes mine look like a garage sale!
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: EdBass on September 04, 2010, 02:27:23 pm
First, a disclaimer;
I am by no means carpentry oriented. I'm an electronics dude. If I needed a 200S box made, I would drop the one pictured off at a wood shop and say "Make me one of these".
With that in mind, here we go…

A is 24”
B is 40”
C is 15”
D is 4,25”
E is 3.25”
F is Uhmmm Oops, forgot to measure “F”
G I have absolutely no idea how to measure the angle of the board, but the distance from the beginning of the angle in a straight line to end of the board (if it were just a straight board) is 9.25” (real hard to measure accurately though)
H is 3.5” to the outside of the furring

The baffle board is actually baffle boards. There are two. and the gap between them is what forms the port opening (which obviously does in fact run the width of the cab, unlike the cab you obtained)

(http://i626.photobucket.com/albums/tt341/EdBass/DSC00010-1.jpg)

(http://i626.photobucket.com/albums/tt341/EdBass/DSC00011-2.jpg)

The center board you added in red is attached to the cabinet, and measures 5” wide. Unlike the ducting, it is made with the same .75” plywood as the rest of the cabinet.

(http://i626.photobucket.com/albums/tt341/EdBass/DSC00012-1.jpg)


There is a recessed .75” X .75” furring mounted .75” deep that frames the inside of the entire cabinet both front and back. The ducting is only .5” thick, vs. the .75” thick construction of the rest of the cab, and runs the width of the cabinet.

The back has a pair reinforcing boards which I also didn't measure, but they are about .75” X 1.25”

(http://i626.photobucket.com/albums/tt341/EdBass/DSC00013.jpg)

I hope that this is helpful, and sorry about the stuff I forgot to measure. The bad news is that the cab is tucked back in its hole, and it will be a while before I get another opportunity to drag it out and measure.
Hopefully you can use CAD wizardry to recreate the missing pieces.
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: Greg_M on September 04, 2010, 08:55:01 pm
It's all helpful !

But without either the length or the angle the 1/2" pieces could be anything.

The other distance is the distance between the very front of the cabinet and the front of the baffle board(s). (I get 1-1/4" on my box)

Thank you for your efforts

Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: EdBass on September 04, 2010, 09:58:51 pm
I'm pretty sure that the cabinet you just obtained isn't any Sunn cabinet I've ever seen, it looks like a home made attempt at a 200S. I would imagine that any dimensions it shares with a 200S would just be a coincidence.
I have other loaded but accessible 200S cabinets that I can get the front of cabinet to baffle from. So if I get that and the F measurement, that's all you need to complete the CAD?
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: Greg_M on September 05, 2010, 02:19:34 pm
The radius on the outside edges would be helpful.

Oh yah....... I need the dimension of the red board in the drawing that the back screws to

Distance from the very front of the cabinet to the front of the speaker baffle

I think you're right about this being an attempt to copy. The sticker from BandStand music is interesting though.
The wife and I stripped the old painted vinyl off this morning.
Whatever it is, it's vintage.

I think I might sand it down and mess with it a little, but not recover it for a while and see if anything else comes along

(http://www.muellersatomics.com/Sunn/stripped_200s.jpg)


They used nails to hold a lot of this together while the glue dried
The extra layer of plywood around the front to be specific. I was just going to run a router around the inside to take that 1/4" off so it is 1-1/4" but those nail heads will mess up my router bit pretty quick

Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: Greg_M on September 05, 2010, 03:22:52 pm
Here's an interesting bit from Conrad in an interview


This design came to me in the twilight of my sleep. I don not have any drawings of the cabinet, but I do have a memory of its construction. The cabinet's external dimensions are 24" wide, 36" tall and 15" deep. A 1/2" plywood liner was placed on the inside front edge of the cabinet to make it look "beefy". The port in the 2 X 15" cabinet was 5" high and ran the entire width of the cabinet. The horn baffle was formed out of two pieces of 1/2" plywood. The horizontal piece being about 3 to 3-1/2" in depth and the 45 degree angle piece being 9" long. On the dual 15" cabinet there were two baffle assemblies. The 1/2" plywood horn baffle pieces were glued into routed grooves in the sides of the cabinet. The single 15" was simply 1/2 of the dual 15" cabinet with the port at the bottom of the cabinet with a single horn baffle assembly. I could sketch it for you but no draw capabilities on this e-mail response mechanism. I would be more than happy to send you a sketch.

Using the 9" at 45° mentioned, it comes out just about right, if the distance from the very front of the cabinet to the baffle board is 1-1/4"

http://www.richbriere.com/The_Sunn_Shack.htm
bottom of the page
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: EdBass on September 06, 2010, 10:20:48 am
The radius on the outside edges would be helpful.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I mean, I know what a radius is; geometry wasn’t that long ago, but I don’t know what you are asking for specifically.

Oh yah....... I need the dimension of the red board in the drawing that the back screws to

As is evident in the photos, it runs the width of the cabinet
The center board you added in red is attached to the cabinet, and measures 5” wide. Unlike the ducting, it is made with the same .75” plywood as the rest of the cabinet.

Distance from the very front of the cabinet to the front of the speaker baffle

As I mentioned, that’s an easy one, I’ve got 200S cabs handy, but they are loaded and buttoned up, and I’m not real inclined to tear into one when I already have one opened up.
I can get that measurement just by using a toothpick through the grillcloth.

I have other loaded but accessible 200S cabinets that I can get the front of cabinet to baffle from.

By the way, the grills on my 200S’s are firmly screwed into place from the inside of the cabinet. This is a picture of a 2000S cabinet, but it’s the same way on my 200S cabs.

(http://i626.photobucket.com/albums/tt341/EdBass/DSC00023Closeup.jpg)

The 200S cabs owned by JohnK and CLD posted in your “A Hit or A Miss? 200S” threads have Velcro attached grills. I’m not sure what’s up with that, if maybe Sunn started using Velcro after a while, or if the cabs were modified over the years.
All of my 200S cabs, Sonic l-40, and all but one of my 2000S cabs are screwed on from the back. The 2000S cab that has Velcro was converted, because it also has screw holes where it was screwed on from the back originally.


I think you're right about this being an attempt to copy. The sticker from BandStand music is interesting though.

 The baffle and porting are not Sunn. Unless it’s maybe a converted 100S cab or some other Sunn cab that didn’t originally have a 215 configuration, or possibly a Sorado cab converted to a center port design, I’d go with a do it yourselfer. It looks a little funny dimensionally though, like it’s either too skinny or too tall to be a Sunn box.
What are the exterior dimensions?
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: Greg_M on September 06, 2010, 10:52:36 am
When they made the cabinets they used a router to round the edges of the cabinets so they are not square. I am wondering what router bit the used to round the edges.
1/4" or 5/16" or 3/8"  etc

The dimension (I need) of "the red board" is how wide it is from front to back. I understand that it goes all the way from one side to the other and that it is made of 3/4" plywood, I just need to know that last dimension. The front to back dimension.

I'm going to assume (which I hate to do) that the baffle boards are 1-1/4" from the very front of the cabinet. If the frame that the grill cloth is stapled to is 3/4" material that would leave a distance of 1/2" from the grill cloth to the very front of the cabinet (minus the velcro if used)

The exterior dimensions of the box I have are 42" x 24" x 15" only 2" taller. What helps to make it look too tall is the extra thick plywood frame on the front. It measures 1-1/2" instead of 1-1/4" That extra 1/4" makes a lot of difference in the looks.
What Sunn did was to take and glue in an extra piece of 1/2" plywood around the front to make the walls look thicker. What who ever built this cabinet did was to use a some pieces of 3/4" plywood which accounts for the extra 1/4" of thickness. It throws off the ratio and it makes them look too fat
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: CLD on September 06, 2010, 10:59:42 am
That's right, my late '70 200S cab has the front-mounting grill - unlike my 1971 Sorado cabs, which have the grill cloth fastened to the baffle on the inside.

Greg M, if it's just a matter of measuring something from the front, I'll work from the above post and see what I can find based on my cab.
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: Greg_M on September 06, 2010, 11:35:23 am
That's right, my late '70 200S cab has the front-mounting grill - unlike my 1971 Sorado cabs, which have the grill cloth fastened to the baffle on the inside.

Greg M, if it's just a matter of measuring something from the front, I'll work from the above post and see what I can find based on my cab.

It might be that if you had a real thin ruler (6" machinist scale or something like it) you could slide it in between the grill and the edge of the cabinet. Or a very thin pin that you could slide in there and then mark the pin or hold your thumbnail on the pin and measure the pin.
I would hate to see anyone poke a hole in their grill just for this dimension
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: CLD on September 06, 2010, 11:53:17 am
Shouldn't be a problem, especially since mine pops off. There's a little more room to maneuver around the grill.
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: EdBass on September 06, 2010, 01:36:25 pm
The dimension (I need) of "the red board" is how wide it is from front to back. I understand that it goes all the way from one side to the other and that it is made of 3/4" plywood, I just need to know that last dimension. The front to back dimension.

The center board you added in red is attached to the cabinet, and measures 5” wide. Unlike the ducting, it is made with the same .75” plywood as the rest of the cabinet.
 

.75” thick and 5” front to back. Am I missing something here?

I'm going to assume (which I hate to do) that the baffle boards are 1-1/4" from the very front of the cabinet. If the frame that the grill cloth is stapled to is 3/4" material that would leave a distance of 1/2" from the grill cloth to the very front of the cabinet (minus the velcro if used)


Using the "modified toothpick" method (I used a paper clip) I get 1.25" from baffle to front of cabinet.

The exterior dimensions of the box I have are 42" x 24" x 15" only 2" taller. What helps to make it look too tall is the extra thick plywood frame on the front. It measures 1-1/2" instead of 1-1/4" That extra 1/4" makes a lot of difference in the looks.
What Sunn did was to take and glue in an extra piece of 1/2" plywood around the front to make the walls look thicker. What who ever built this cabinet did was to use a some pieces of 3/4" plywood which accounts for the extra 1/4" of thickness. It throws off the ratio and it makes them look too fat

I think the too tall look is probably because it’s 2” too tall, which throws off the scale making it look skinny.
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: Greg_M on September 06, 2010, 01:51:18 pm
".75” thick and 5” front to back. Am I missing something here?"

No
I didn't see it nestled between the pictures
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: HRobert on September 06, 2010, 02:09:11 pm
The radius on the outside edges would be helpful.

 Greg, Are you talking about the round over on the edges?  If so, I believe that the edge round over is 1/8" on all edges.  I don't believe that it's a full 1/4" like on a lot of other amps and speaker cabs.  It might be 3/16" at the most.
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: Greg_M on September 06, 2010, 03:31:26 pm
I went to Google and put in "Radius of Sunn Cabinets" and one of the hits was this place that sells corners and knobs and they had two radii of their corners......5/16" and 1/2"
Their descriptions suggested that Sunn (Ampeg, Polytone and others) used 5/16" radius (part #s 2801-Xnp & 2801-np)
Where as others (Fender and whatnot) used a 1/2" radius

https://www.vibroworld.com/parts/tech9.html

Here's an interesting post on corners on another forum (google result)
http://jam4jmessageboard.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=2721817

I built a lot of cabinets back in the 60s as I was too poor to buy the neat ones I wanted. The tighter radius (5/16) rings a bell because I remember Sunn having a smaller radius than the Fender cabinets I was always trying to duplicate. Never actually tried to build a Sunn before.

Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: HRobert on September 07, 2010, 05:58:07 am
I went to Google and put in "Radius of Sunn Cabinets" and one of the hits was this place that sells corners and knobs and they had two radii of their corners......5/16" and 1/2"
Their descriptions suggested that Sunn (Ampeg, Polytone and others) used 5/16" radius (part #s 2801-Xnp & 2801-np)
Where as others (Fender and whatnot) used a 1/2" radius

https://www.vibroworld.com/parts/tech9.html

Here's an interesting post on corners on another forum (google result)
http://jam4jmessageboard.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=2721817

I built a lot of cabinets back in the 60s as I was too poor to buy the neat ones I wanted. The tighter radius (5/16) rings a bell because I remember Sunn having a smaller radius than the Fender cabinets I was always trying to duplicate. Never actually tried to build a Sunn before.


Greg,  I believe that the 1/2" radius is too big.  That would be a 1" circle.  I used a 1/8" roundover bit in a router to do the edges of my cabs.  The corners had to be flattened a bit more with a rasp and then the OEM corners fit pretty well.  From this experience I think that a 3/16" would be perfect.

Have you tried to contact VibroWorld?  Last spring I tried several times to buy both the two and three legged corners, and every time the guy who runs the operation was off running sound for his band and I couldn't place an order.  Plus he either blocks his emails or doesn't return any messages. I tried several times to order the corners with no luck. I finally got tired of trying to deal with this guy and found out that you can get the OEM corners from Conrad.  I would suggest buying from him...great service and quick shipping.

Rob
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: CLD on September 07, 2010, 07:47:33 am
Greg, I took some measurements this morning.

With the grill out, the distance from the baffle to the outside (front) edge of the cabinet is a full 1 inch. With the grill in place, there is 1/4 inch to the front edge.

The wooden frame itself is only half an inch thick but the cloth and early style faux velcro add a quarter-inch to the width.

I measured that center piece "red board" and mine is 5 1/8 inches front to back. I measured it three times to be sure; wouldn't be surprised by small variations like that being tolerated in Tualatin.

Getting back to the grill cloth discussions earlier, attached are two photos showing the "Conrad cloth" next to the original, 1971 cloth on my Sorado cabs.  One is absolutely original, never cleaned, and the other one is original but has been cleaned. As you can see, the Conrad cloth is very nice but slightly brighter. Not sure if it comes through in the photos but in person is has a slight (and very light) blue tint.

I hope these are helpful.
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: Greg_M on September 07, 2010, 08:16:16 am
I dropped a note to Conrad to see what they are using now and if they sell any original corners.
An easy way to kind of measure the radius is to put a straight edge up the side of an original cabinet (sticking out the top) and then measure over to the end of the radius (with a ruler) as it goes across the top. That's not going to be perfect but it would give an approximate.

I've never tried to contact Vibroworld, I haven't built a speaker cabinet in a very long time. (but I'm getting the urge)

I have CNC mills (for metal) that I can jig up and make the cuts for the folded horns and what not. Might be fun to make one or two. I'm pretty sure they will spin fast enough to cut wood.
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: Greg_M on September 07, 2010, 08:21:48 am
CLD
Yes probably there are slight variations on dimensions. Those variations are one of the things got me out of working wood and into metal working.  :-D

The more measurements the better and we can average them out. I'll alter my speaker grill recess dimension to 1" and the red board to 5-1/8" probably won't matter much to the sound waves, but might as well

Thanks for the effort
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: Greg_M on September 07, 2010, 08:44:24 am
Getting back to the grill cloth discussions earlier, attached are two photos showing the "Conrad cloth" next to the original, 1971 cloth on my Sorado cabs.  One is absolutely original, never cleaned, and the other one is original but has been cleaned. As you can see, the Conrad cloth is very nice but slightly brighter. Not sure if it comes through in the photos but in person is has a slight (and very light) blue tint.

I hope these are helpful.

The bluish look reminds me of the Fender "silver face" amp grill cloth as opposed to the "black face" amps.

Thanks for those comparison pictures!
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: HRobert on September 07, 2010, 05:33:50 pm
Greg,

Here are two sources for grill cloth.  Mojo Musical Supply. Black/White/Silver #6301005. 36" wide and is $21.75/ linear yd.   This is what I used on my Sentura II cabs.  Parts Express has a B/W/S grill cloth, 36" wide and is $15.90 / linear yd. I believe they are the same thing... I have some of both and can't tell the difference.  For some reason this cloth also shows a bluish tinge in pictures.  The blue comes from the camera flash.  But in person, it does not have the bluish tint...it's just as it says; B/W/S. I suggest buying 1 yd of each and comparing.  What the heck, you can always use the cloth for a small project.....monitors etc.
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: Soundmasterg on September 07, 2010, 06:46:32 pm
I went to Google and put in "Radius of Sunn Cabinets" and one of the hits was this place that sells corners and knobs and they had two radii of their corners......5/16" and 1/2"
Their descriptions suggested that Sunn (Ampeg, Polytone and others) used 5/16" radius (part #s 2801-Xnp & 2801-np)
Where as others (Fender and whatnot) used a 1/2" radius

https://www.vibroworld.com/parts/tech9.html

Here's an interesting post on corners on another forum (google result)
http://jam4jmessageboard.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=2721817

I built a lot of cabinets back in the 60s as I was too poor to buy the neat ones I wanted. The tighter radius (5/16) rings a bell because I remember Sunn having a smaller radius than the Fender cabinets I was always trying to duplicate. Never actually tried to build a Sunn before.


Greg,  I believe that the 1/2" radius is too big.  That would be a 1" circle.  I used a 1/8" roundover bit in a router to do the edges of my cabs.  The corners had to be flattened a bit more with a rasp and then the OEM corners fit perfect.  From this experience I think that a 3/16" would be perfect.

Have you tried to contact VibroWorld?  Last spring I tried several times to buy both the two and three legged corners, and every time the guy who runs the operation was off running sound for his band and I couldn't place an order.  Plus he either blocks his emails or doesn't return any messages. I tried several times to order the corners with no luck. I finally got tired of trying to deal with this guy and found out that you can get the OEM corners from Conrad.  I would suggest buying from him...great service and quick shipping.

Rob

The guy who runs Vibroworld (Zach) put the company on hiatus several years back to go be the amp tech for Robert Cray on a European tour, and as far as I know he hasn't started it back up again. I could be wrong though. He is across town from me and is a good guy, but is always very busy. I'd just go through Conrad for any and all questions regarding these cabinets and sourcing parts. He's a great guy and is very friendly and helpful.....not to mention he's the guy who designed it originally too. Just email him....

Greg
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: Soundmasterg on September 07, 2010, 06:49:18 pm
At some point velcro was added to the front of the cabinets to hold the grille cloth on. I've got a 2000S cabinet with the old style grille cloth and it has the velcro on it from day 1, so they probably added it pretty early. If I was making one of these cabinets, I would front load the speakers. It doesn't change the sound and makes the speakers much easier to remove if needed. Conrad likes to build them as front-loaders nowadays too.

Greg
Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: Greg_M on September 07, 2010, 07:10:33 pm

I wrote to Conrad and said.....

    I am trying to duplicate the look of the original Sunn amp cabinets on one I want to build. Do you remember what that radius was (back in the 60s)? I remember it being smaller than the Fender (et al) amps which was 1/2". I'm guessing it was 5/16"

    What are you using on your modern amps?
    It looks like 1/2" in the pictures. Anything other than 1/2" is extremely hard to find. Do you sell corners for the original Sunn amps?

    Thanks
    Greg

To which he answered....

Hi Greg,  The original radius on the Sunn cabs was a little too small for the corners used.  A 1/16th (I think he meant to say 7/16) would have been better.  Whiteside does make a 7/16ths round over bit with a 1/2” shank.  They are available at Woodcraft.

I do sell the Sunn corners.  2-leg are 1.10 each and the 3-leg are 1.20 each.

I use a 7/16th bit or a 1/2” bit depending on the tolex.

Conrad Sundholm
Conrad Engineering, LLC
2135 River Heights Circle
West Linn, OR  97068

Title: Re: 200S Blueprints ?
Post by: Jeff Troy on October 21, 2010, 11:22:04 am
Hi, Ed,

Like an Italian interior decorator...

"Oh, my God. There's a corner without a statue or a fountain!"

Cool room. Always hated Kustom (with a K - perfect!) amps, but the metalflake wall on Glee has made them pretty cool -- campy but still knida cool.

Funny how time changes things. Now I can even listen to Bee Gees disco songs without throwing up (but I still don't listen).

Warmest regards,