The sunn Forum
Sunn Musical Equipment => DIY => Topic started by: tacklebox455 on July 10, 2011, 01:09:18 am
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Ok so i'm kicking around the idea of building a ptp model t 1st gen but trying to keep it at around 20 to 30watts,
question is has anyone here ever tried it and if so did it turn out good?
also this will be my first build i do however have a great amp tech whos going to help me
i was also thinking of if it turns out good why not take it a step further and add 2 more gain stages just for the hell of it.
so what does everyone think? good or bad i'll listen
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That would probably be an interesting amp, but it wouldn't be a Model T.
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That would probably be an interesting amp, but it wouldn't be a Model T.
Ditto. You could replace the phrase "a ptp model t 1st gen" in your post with "an amp" and probably been more accurate.
You could theoretically clone a Model T, but changing output; transformers, tube complements, etc. and adding gain stages would make it an entirely different animal.
Many people think that it's just a matter of copying a circuit from a schematic and scaling the values up/down, but that doesn't work.
What makes a Model T a Model T, or any amp what it is, is the "big picture"; the sum total of all of the parts working together. The various stages "talk" to each else on several levels, and different components will behave differently when used together to affect the overall result.
This is one of the reasons that with so many gazillion different amps available there are just a handful of iconic, “got it right” designs; 200S, B15, Marshall Bluesbreaker, etc., of course everyone has their personal favorites, but my point is that it's not "plug 'n play". It’s not like a component home theater or PA rig, where you can pretty much just plug any preamp into any power amp and use whatever.
An integrated, hand wired tube MI amp takes on its characteristics based on the big picture, the sum total of its parts working together. You can’t just, for example, copy the schematic of a Model T preamp and “plug it into” the schematic for the output stage of a Vox AC30 to get a 30 watt Model T, or use a Model T schematic and just use smaller transformers and a pair of 6V6’s to get a “20-30 watt Model T”.
You might end up with a killer amp, but as Isaac says; “it wouldn't be a Model T”, and IMO even using “Model T” in the description is a little inaccurate as to the project you are describing.
Good luck, and be sure to post about how it works out!
By the way, I'm moving this to DIY.
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thanx for the thoughts the added gain stages would come after i made the first amp ,
so far it looks like were coping the T preamp and for the power amp where hoping to figure out a way to use 1 6550 and keep the amp at a max of 30 watts, but may have to use 1 6L6 or as you stated a pair of 6V6's as far as trannys ive been talking to sergio at mercury magnetics who seems to be really interested in this build.
theres alot of work going into this and were hoping if everything goes well and if we can do it cost effective then maybe we can do 30 watt clones of other amps that sound like the real deal just smaller wattage
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OK i will preface this w/ the fact that i was @ a bar and my peeps were buyin...so:
i have a number of sunn amps-9 Model Ts plus and i just have to say-those old amps are NOT to be tampered w/ as this thread is threatening. to me they are a holistic, aesthetic work of art that just happened to contain thee tone. and its not for tampering with imo.
(30 watts? whats that about-buy a deluxe and be done w/ it)
http://stanosaur.com/
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The additional gain stage(s) wouldn't be too difficult, but how in the world do you plan to make a single output tube sound tonally like an efficient, low distortion ultralinear amp?
Again it might sound cool, and a 6550 in Class A will probably give you about 20 watts, but I don't know how it would sound anything like a Model T. It's tonally and response characteristically apples and oranges. They both taste good, just fundamentally different.
IMO Mercury makes great stuff, but keep in mind that (IMO) they should be very interested in and encourage any build that might result in them selling some trannies, that's how they earn a living and feed their families.
I'm not dogging Mercury, that would be hypocritical; but... caveat emptor. :wink:
I'm also not trying to discourage you, I just think you may be underestimating what's involved in what you are trying to accomplish.
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i dig everyones input so no hard feelings here
everything i'm talking poweramp wise is just off the top of our heads thinking out loud kinda stuff nothing really concrete yet preamp we have that down no problem power amp is kicking our ass because of like you said its gonna be real hard to capture the same tone that the original has were trying differant amps out now trying to get real close to the same magic so far a orange AD 30 is the closest but again nowhere near what where looking f
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OK i will preface this w/ the fact that i was @ a bar and my peeps were buyin...so:
i have a number of sunn amps-9 Model Ts plus and i just have to say-those old amps are NOT to be tampered w/ as this thread is threatening. to me they are a holistic, aesthetic work of art that just happened to contain thee tone. and its not for tampering with imo.
(30 watts? whats that about-buy a deluxe and be done w/ it)
http://stanosaur.com/
i'm not wanting to replace the T but there are people out there such as myself that would like to be able to play a T without having to wear ear plugs and waking the dead lol thats why i'm looking at a 20 to 30 watt here, and as far as preamp goes i've just always wondered what a couple of more gain stages would do with this amp .
and i for sure aint gonna add them to my real T i was gonna do a clone of my T and just add the extra gain stages but again i have the 100 watt problem again, and who knows if me and my amp tech buds can pull this off (even thou its a far fetched idea) it could get more people interested in sunn and see and hear that it really is a killer tone and it could but likely not get fender off there ass and get sunn back in the limelight, at the moment thou its just a dream on some notebook paper
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so still trying to find the right power section and i'm about of of ideas as of right now i'm thinking of useing a fender twin (15watt) power section runs 2 6v6's .
anyone else got any other ideas?
my previous ideas where orange ad30,ampeg a15/b15 porta flex
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i'm thinking of useing a fender twin (15watt) power section runs 2 6v6's
What? Did you maybe mean Fender Princeton?
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damn! i am compelled to check this thread every so often just cause it says 'Model T' but its just a train wreck of a thread! someone please stop me from clicking on this ill fated thing. :cry:
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i'm thinking of useing a fender twin (15watt) power section runs 2 6v6's
What? Did you maybe mean Fender Princeton?
no i ment twin it was the twin wide panel 15 watts i was wrong on the tubes thou it used 6L6 this twin was made from 1952 to 1954 the whole amp was 3 x 6SC7,6J5 2 x 6L6,5U4 recto four input jacks 4 knobs mic vol,inst vol,bass, and treble model 5D8 had a 12AY7 in it
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damn! i am compelled to check this thread every so often just cause it says 'Model T' but its just a train wreck of a thread! someone please stop me from clicking on this ill fated thing. :cry:
you may want the lager wattage version i also like the higher wattage version but i know there are many people that would love to have a 15 watt model t if i can make one that sounds really really close to a original t i could sell it cheaper than the higher wattage ones which in turn means more people could enjoy this amp.
could be a better success if you wanted to shoot some ideas of your own ;)
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so still trying to find the right power section and i'm about of of ideas as of right now i'm thinking of useing a fender twin (15watt) power section runs 2 6v6's .
anyone else got any other ideas?
my previous ideas where orange ad30,ampeg a15/b15 porta flex
Why not just use the existing Model T power amp schematic, scaling down the transformer ratings for smaller power tubes?
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Tboy make a good point. A Model T is basically a 5F6A front end, a Master Volume control and an Ultra-Linear power amp. There arent any examples of ultralinear power amps using 6V6s I can think of but Hammond makes several transformers in the 15 to 30 watt range that would work fine. Just decide if you want two or four 6V6s, pick an OT, then find a PT that will give a B+ in the 375 to 425 range. Use the Model T schematic as a guide.
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i could just reduce the values of the power section but i feel it wont sound the same , thats why i'm looking at different power sections of different amps i'm looking for a power section that sounds very close if not the same to the model t.
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It's not going to sound the same no matter what you do.
This transformer will get you pretty close:
http://store.triodestore.com/z517wadyoutr.html
Some of this guy's amps have ultra-linear outputs but no feedback. Schematics are hard to find.
http://www.drzamps.com/
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You could try building one channel of a Dynaco ST-35. No Sunn enthusiast could find fault with that idea. :-D
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thats a name i have'nt heard in a while