The sunn Forum
Sunn Musical Equipment => Q & A => Topic started by: pickinatit on January 26, 2007, 06:42:54 pm
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Got my first Sunn 2 X 15 Cab to go with my 2000S!!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=003&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=130071210451&rd=1&rd=1
Thank all you guys. Your input in the thread about this cab helped convince me to go for it. Do you think $ 310 was an ok deal ?
And a big thanks to my wife for putting up with my expenditures for this stuff. I told her it could be worse. I could be buying sports cars for my mid-life crises. Instead I'm spending a mere fraction of that on Guitar and Bass Gear.
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Congrats!!
A Sunn seems a pretty good mid-life crisis - it will certainly be louder than a fancy sports car!
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:-D Hey, thanks Rick. I'll move more air than a sports car blowing by too!
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thats a great price-imo
wish it wasnt tax time or i woulda given you a run for that cab-
looks pretty-hope it plays well.
next time-watch out-i am always on the prowl for a GoodSunnCab.
s
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thats a great price-imo
wish it wasnt tax time or i woulda given you a run for that cab-
looks pretty-hope it plays well.
next time-watch out-i am always on the prowl for a GoodSunnCab.
s
I'll watch out. A little competition is a good thing. Except, let's not drive up the prices amoung each OTHER for the stuff we want to BUY!
Only for the stuff we might want to SELL to non Sunn-Site victi...I mean buyers! (you could never truly be a victim if you ended up with Sunn equipment regardless of whether or not you paid too much! LOL)
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If it has JBL drivers in it, as it appears to, it's a very good buy.
If not, it's merely a good buy.
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I'll watch out. A little competition is a good thing. Except, let's not drive up the prices amoung each OTHER for the stuff we want to BUY!
AMEN to that!
i hate these guys who tryin outbid each other 4 or 5 days before the auction is over-
it makes for piss poor maneuvering at the end :-(
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AMEN to that!
i hate these guys who tryin outbid each other 4 or 5 days before the auction is over-
it makes for piss poor maneuvering at the end :-(
I second that. Really a bummer when things go out of your price range after only a day or two - I always thought the whole point of eBay was sniping at the last second!
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Got the shipping charge. $ 65 so the total is $ 375. I'm pretty happy with that, especially if it has the JBL's in it.
Thanks for the well wishes guys. Now I just need the second one to go with it. But that, I think, will need to wait while my teeth get fixed and my finances recuperate.
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Won an E-Bay auction for the 200S 2 X 15 Cab that looks like it might have the JBL's in it for $375 including shipping.
Sent a money order to address given on E-Bay for: "Send payment to"
Two weeks go by, he hasn't received it.
He e-mails me a couple days ago and asks, Did you send it to: "Different address" ?
I e-mailed back that I sent to address on E-Bay.
He says "E-Bay was supposed to change that address. F**G E-Bay".
Suggests I cancel the money order and send a new one to the "right" address.
(which of course I won't do until I'm sure the first one is canceled).
But if he or someone else has cashed the first money order already, I'm not going to send another one. How do I cancel the deal without getting negative feed back on myself if he claims he never got the money?
Anyone ever had to deal with this type of situation where E-Bay is concerned?
First problem I've ever had purchasing off E-Bay.
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He says "E-Bay was supposed to change that address. F**G E-Bay".
That's not true. eBay doesn't change addresses for individuals, YOU have to change your own information.
First cancel the money order and hope it hasn't been cashed.
Then request his contact information. Go to this link and scroll down to the link where it says to request a seller's contact information. You'll need his id and the item number of the auction. Check the address he has on file with ebay and where you sent the money order.
http://pages.ebay.com/help/buy/questions/contact-seller.html
If you're out the money, about the only option you have is to file a dispute for item not received. This link will tell you how to go about that.
http://pages.ebay.com/help/tp/inr-snad-process.html
If you're not out the money and you don't want to continue with the deal - well, if the seller still has not changed his address, you might report him for having invalid contact information. This might get the auction canceled and you off the hook.
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/identity-false.html
The other choice is to talk the seller into canceling the sale. He will have to file a UID (unpaid item dispute) as a mutual agreement. If you accept the mutual agreement, then you are out of the sale and the seller will get his final value fees back.
If the seller refuses he will eventually file a UID but not as a mutual. Your best choice is to respond to it. If you don't, the seller can close it in 8 days giving you an unpaid item strike, getting his fees back, and have the ability to leave you negative feedback. Any feedback you leave him will not count against him because of your strike.
But ebay has been known to remove unpaid item strikes - especially if you forward his emails about his invalid shipping address to them.
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I'm checking the seller's contact info. as you suggested. I went to the P.Office and found out you can't cancel a Postal Money Order. Only file an inquiry and if it hasn't been cashed within 60 days of issuance, they will refund you. So I won't know about that until March 29th!!
In the meantime I contacted the seller and asked him if there isn't any way to recover mail that was sent to his old address (that's what he said happened, he moved from an Apt. into a house). If he wants the money and this isn't just some kind of scam then he will at least make the effort I would think. I told him I wanted to work this out in a way that was fair and as risk free as possible for both of us.
So, I'll see what the response is and then decide on the next step. Thanks for the suggested course of actions open to me next. I appreciate it. I'll keep posting the outcome of all this.
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Whew... what does the wife think of this mess? In my opinion, I would always use paypal (to cover one's ass) and only use check/money order for a local pickup only or items under $20 (no need to have your kind of cash hung up in Limbo for who knows how long).
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Paypal is easy, but the fees are a pain and some sellers refuse to deal with it (such as the one I bought my Beta footswitch from, he wanted the money order).
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Paypal is easy, but the fees are a pain and some sellers refuse to deal with it (such as the one I bought my Beta footswitch from, he wanted the money order).
I agree with both of you. This seller wouldn't accept pay-pal. I've learned some valuable lessons here myself.
(1) I will only buy if I can pay by pay-pal from now on.
(2) If I was mailing check/money order I would only send by some sort of priority mail with a return receipt requested. (that was a mistake on MY part that has compounded this situation).
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Not all sellers are out to screw over buyers.
There are some other reasons for sellers not wanting to accept paypal.
Some of that is related to the additional fees ($0.30 plus 2.9% of the total payment including shipping). After all, eBay has already taken roughly 5% of the winning bid price not to mention the fees for listing the auction in the first place. But on the other hand, sometimes it is worth the cost of business to use paypal.
Paypal has sort of a SPP - seller protection policy. The theory is that if a seller conforms to the requirements of the SPP, then the seller is protected against scams by the buyer. This is not always true, but in the majority of cases it is better than nothing. However, most of the SPP requirements do at times seem to be nothing more than jumping through unnecessary hoops.
One requirement is that anything costing $250 or more be sent with signature confirmation of delivery. This either means that the buyer has to be home to accept delivery or take a trip to his post office. I did this once and had an angry buyer on my hands, luckily he calmed down and left positive feedback once I explained the reason to him - but the possibility of an angry buyer not wanting to join the seller in jumping through a paypal hoop isn't in the best interest of a seller. So I learned that if I believe the cost might be around or more than the $250 mark, I don't accept paypal.
Another requirement is that the seller must ship to the paypal confirmed address only. You must specify this in the auction's TOS (terms of sale) in order to require paypal buyers to have a confirmed address. You cannot block them from bidding on your item, but you can block them from paying for the auction through paypal.
This could give you another angry buyer if they didn't read the TOS, but they do have the option of having their paypal account address confirmed prior to paying. But if they did read the TOS and don't have a confirmed address and do not care to get one, then you have effectively only limited the bids you will get for your auction.
Along the same lines, confirmed addresses can be PO boxes. UPS cannot deliver to a PO box. There is no way to block a PO box confirmed address. So if I am going to ship the item UPS, I do not accept paypal for the auction - so as not to further limit my bidding pool... or find out after the auction that I can't meet the SPP requirement by having to ship to their street address.
And the requirement for confirmed address shipping can prevent a seller from honoring the wishes of the buyer, like the reason they won your auction in the first place. The best example I have of this is the mom in Tucson that bought my model T head as a present for her son in California. She asked if I could ship it to him. If I had taken paypal I would have had to say "No".
Just a few additional things to consider if you only want to pay with paypal.
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...The best example I have of this is the mom in Tucson that bought my model T head as a present for her son in California.
Geez i wonder if that Model T is being played today...
i hope if anyone has a Model T(old ones) for sale and is on this list they offer it here first.
its so hard findin good ones
i'm just sayin
s
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Not all sellers are out to screw over buyers.
There are some other reasons for sellers not wanting to accept paypal.
Some of that is related to the additional fees ($0.30 plus 2.9% of the total payment including shipping). After all, eBay has already taken roughly 5% of the winning bid price not to mention the fees for listing the auction in the first place. But on the other hand, sometimes it is worth the cost of business to use paypal.
I understand there are legitimate reasons for sellers not to want to accept paypal. But the buyer needs some protection too, obviously.
My son bought something off e-bay and the seller claimed he never received the moneyorder. An inquiry into the money order revealed that it had been cashed. The signiature was unintelligible, so he was just out. So, I understand the reasons, but I think I will be very, very reluctant to accept the risk again since my family has been burnt once and maybe twice now.
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Once bitten, twice shy. I understand that!!
For both buyers and sellers, nothing is completely safe. Not even paypal.
I'm not anti-paypal, not by any means. Most of the time everything goes well and there are no complaints. But when things don't go well, it really is a crap shoot as to how paypal will handle it. They are very inconsistent in how they apply their own policies, and many buyers have lost their money. Paying with a credit card through paypal is probably the safest, at least if paypal decides against you there is always the option of doing a chargeback through the credit card company.
If I have to send a money order it will always be a postal money order. If it is cashed at the post office, the person cashing it must present ID and sign it in the presence of the postal employee. And of course anything deposited into an account will have the account information on it. The chances of anything wrong happening with a postal money order is pretty slim, and I like to think that it may have something to do with the seller being subjected to a federal investigation for mail fraud.
What amazes me are the people that send me money orders for items with nothing in the envelope except for the money order! Not only that, but absolutely no return address on the envelope either!!
I guess that's because it seems that they are not even taking the minimum of reasonable precautions as it's very easy to see the money order through most envelopes. At least wrap it in a sheet of blank paper!!
Of the 20+ money orders I received for eBay sales, only one had any sort of delivery confirmation. I had to sign for that one since it was sent express - as I understand it "he" and "she" thought the other was going to send it. "she" got nominated and sent it express so I would get it the next day after they realized neither had sent it. The express cost was around $16 if I remember correctly.
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you got a good deal...as a proud owner of two 2000s sunn amps with cabs, and 5 2oos sunn amps with cabs...no..none of them are for sale..when i die....they go with me...ok..back to your deal...you did good....us sunn owners will back up any stuff you buy with the sunn name plate on it...we'll even talk with your wife to tell her...it's a sunn owners thing..she wouldn't understand....it's like...jewlery to them..amps to us...enough said....Bob...from mass.
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ummm..... what do you do w/ all them beauty amps and cabs?
of course the perfect answer is:
i use all of them ina pick up band i'm in :lol:
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I did send a Postal Money Order, but so had my son when he got burnt. They're evidently not always as careful as they should be about checking identification. They didn't mark anything on the money order such as his drivers license number or anything that could be used to verify that it was the seller that cashed the check and not someone else, so we'll never know.
I'm going to call the seller tonight and see what, if anything, we can work out.
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I did send a Postal Money Order, but so had my son when he got burnt. They're evidently not always as careful as they should be about checking identification. They didn't mark anything on the money order such as his drivers license number or anything that could be used to verify that it was the seller that cashed the check and not someone else, so we'll never know.
I'm going to call the seller tonight and see what, if anything, we can work out.
It is not necessary, although several postal employees do, to mark something on the money order verifying ID. The mere fact that they cashed it is sufficient to establish identity.
The verification of ID to cash a postal money order at a post office is a federal requirement - not an option. If a postal employee ever cashes a postal money order without verifying identification, then that employee will be subject to disciplinary action - including termination and possible federal jail time.
If the seller doesn't make good, file a mail fraud complaint. You can even do it online. The USPS will investigate and they take their job very seriously.
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I did send a Postal Money Order, but so had my son when he got burnt. They're evidently not always as careful as they should be about checking identification. They didn't mark anything on the money order such as his drivers license number or anything that could be used to verify that it was the seller that cashed the check and not someone else, so we'll never know.
I'm going to call the seller tonight and see what, if anything, we can work out.
It is not necessary, although several postal employees do, to mark something on the money order verifying ID. The mere fact that they cashed it is sufficient to establish identity.
The verification of ID to cash a postal money order at a post office is a federal requirement - not an option. If a postal employee ever cashes a postal money order without verifying identification, then that employee will be subject to disciplinary action - including termination and possible federal jail time.
If the seller doesn't make good, file a mail fraud complaint. You can even do it online. The USPS will investigate and they take their job very seriously.
Wow! This is Very good to know. I didn't get a chance to call last night
(I had a 2 mo. old Grandchild taken to the hospital - everything is fine there). I will try today/tonight.
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I actually didn't bid on that cab because the seller was not responsive. Asked what speakers and the dimensions of the cab and go a "will chekc and let you know." Asked a few times and he emailed in the final hours saying he forgot.
As far as Postal Money Orders....There are a few interesting things about them.
1) They NEVER expire or go out of date.
2) Up until last year, only the person who originally bought the money order could trace it. So, if yu were a seller looking to trace a missing money order sent to you, you were out of luck is the buyer/sender did not cooperate. Fortunately the USPO changed that so either side can trace it.
3) I believe it's 90 days that you must wait for a money order to be considered "missing" nad then you may request a replacement. They do it from St/ Louis, MO.
4) If they send you a replacement...it actually says on it something to the effect that "if the original M.O. is ever cashed, whomever the replacement is made out to and cashed by IS RESPONSIBLE FOR REIMBURSING THE USPO FOR THAT AMOUNT!!!!!
5) I know all of this from tracing over $5000 in USPO Money Orders that a scamming tenant claimed he "sent me" from two doors away. It was all a con to not pay rent and he'd done it to others in the past. He didn;t realixe that they'd changed it so now either side could trace the money orders...he TOTALLY flipped out when he realized I'd traced them all and had received AND CASHED the replacements. Even thought they do read that I would have to reimburse the USPO if they originals ever got cashed....he screwed himself because he was the only other person who could cash the originals...and the USPO investigators said that if he DID cash them after claiming he'd sent them to me, he would be committing US Postal Fraud and be arrested!!
Ironically, he flipped out about me getting the money and actually went up to the local post office demanding that the clerk who signed and submitted the trace request for me BE FIRED!! When that didn't happen he returned a few days later and threstened to KILL the clerk...and they called the cops and he was arrested anyway. HAHAHAHAHAHA. Scamming ittle weasel.
So...you may get lucky and it'll work out.
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After the excitement of making a purchase it's a huge disappointment to have so much trouble :-( I hope it all works out. Remain calm and hope for the best. One lesson I've learned was taught by the Postal Service. My confirmed addy is a P.O. box and I've had very little trouble. For items too large for my box they either put a key to a larger box or a pickup slip in it which I then take to the counter. One time they put the pickup slip in someone else's box then gave them the item which they never returned (two JJ 6l6's...may the recipient choke on the glass...some people's children!). The seller had a tracking number (properly addressed) and delivery was confirmed to this someone. Since then I ask the seller to also add signature confirmation (they usually ask for ID if they don't know you) and I'll pay the extra couple of bucks. I do the same if sending money orders for payment.
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I spoke on the phone to the seller this weekend. I am convinced that the guy is on the up & up and made an honest mistake by moving and not changing his "payment to" address on e-bay. (Although he insists that he thought he had and doesn't understand what happened there, but I believe him).
He says that at his old address they told him that any mail that comes into the apartment complex addressed to a tenant that no longer resides there is "returned to sender" as a matter of course/procedure.
So we have agreed to wait a little longer to see if the postal money order is returned to me or if the time (about 30 more days now) elapses without it being cashed so that I can get a refund from the Post Office. I'm in no rush for the cab in the sense that I don't NEED it right away. So I think as long as we stay in touch with one another we will end up working this out to our mutual satisfaction provided my Money Order doesn't get cashed by someone else somehow.
I'll Post down the road if there any more further developments
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Miracle of Miracles!!! My Money Order for the cab came back to me yesterday "returned to sender" !!! I think I'm finally going to end up getting that cab that I won what seems like oh so long, long ago!!
This time the Money order will be sent by some kind of priority mail with a return receipt requested. OH HAPPY DAYS!!
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Well, my money order ended up coming back to me via "Return to Sender"
back on March 1st. (31 days after I mailed it). By March 3rd I had it back on it's way (to the correct address this time) and today I got word that it finally arrived in Indianapolis yesterday (9 days from New Jersey).
Man, is snail mail always that pathetic ?
Anyway, the seller is supposed to cash the Money Order and send the cab on it's way today, finally. I am eagerly awaiting the tracking number.
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Good luck!
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I got my fingers crossed that they are JBL's.....let us know.
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Well, after some trials and tribulations, the cab finally arrived.
The good news first....The outside of the cab is in pretty good condition and should clean up pretty well. The grille cloth is very dingy/dirty and has a few small holes in it but not really bad. What's the best way to try to clean it up before I go the replacement route ?
Bad News....the speakers are NOT JBL's. They are Peavey Black widows. (This is not really real bad news. I need to research them to determine wattage, but should be able to use them as part of my 1200S rig). One of them sounds great, the other not so good, pretty muddy and distorted.
The inside of the cab has had a weird shaped hole cut out of the horizontal baffle board behind the top speaker, I guess to facilitate the speaker replacement.
And isn't the 200S cab supposed to have a continuous horizontal port across the front between the two speakers?
I will Post pics tonight so you can see what I've got.
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FINALLY!!!
Congratulations! Good things come the those who wait...
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IMO, don't replace the grille cloth. Why do you think people are paying ridiculous $$$ for Fender's "relic" guitars? People love that look, and besides... IMO again, if you do that, you're just spending $$$ to devaluate it.
I'm pretty adept when it comes to restoring, actually just cleaning, gluing, etc. Bringing back what is there, not putting something new on, so I'll share my trick for cleaning grille cloths with you.
Oven cleaner!
STOPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!! Just kidding!!! :evil:
In all seriousness, but still at your own risk, this has worked for me in the past.
1st I have to ask... Are you single or is your significant other tolerating of strange abuses of the bathtub related to mid winter restorations of whatever? I once spent a week working on an old set of racing wheels in the tub, one at a time, on an upside down milkcrate of course to not damage or scratch the tub, I spent couple days on each one, stripping a few coats of race car paint overspray and polishing them... I would have much preferred doing that job outside, but it’s a lot more pleasant inside in mid January…
Back to the grille cloth. Put in the tub or shower, don’t get it wet yet and spray the crap out of it with 409 or similar, Simple Green might work even better but I'm not crazy about the smell. Use something that's fairly harmless, and that you like the smell of.
Grunge, old nicotine, bar grease, cat pee and whatever else will just run off of it and down the drain. Let is sit a few minutes, spray it some more til the dirt quits running out, then rinse it with some nice warm or hot water, works much better of course if you have a handheld shower wand on a hose... Actually, if you don't have that, you can't rinse it properly.
Let it drain down and dry if off as quickly as possible (pat it dry with some towels, one in each hand against the grille cloth, don’t be rough with it) so that the wood frame doesn't warp or split. You’ll have a beautifully grille cloth, and sometimes you can sort of weave the material back together around the snags with a pair of tweezers.
The reason I don't do this outside, although you could is because.... Hmmmm? I like doing it in the tub and I know something (yes I'm paranoid) isn't going to come along and steal it or destroy it while it's outside if it's left unattended and I definitely recommend rinsing with warm water and getting all of the cleaner out.
Just be ready for some derision coming from other family members who might already be questioning your sanity anyway, who knows...
;-)
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IMO, don't replace the grille cloth. Why do you think people are paying ridiculous $$$ for Fender's "relic" guitars? People love that look, and besides... IMO again, if you do that, you're just spending $$$ to devaluate it.
Oh I want to clean it not replace it. I only mentioned that as an absolutely last resort. But when you see the pics of this cab's insides, well, I have a feeling there isn't much original about it anymore.
I really appreciate the advise for cleaning it.
Anyone else have any different method / process/ cleaning agent that they use? The bathtub method is do-able for me if I pick my time carefully enough.
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Are you in Britain? "Advise" begs the question?
Glad to hear you won't rush to replace the original out.
I would try to find as mild but effective cleaner that you can find, some of the citrus stuff is very good also. Stay away from the harsher products that tend to get your lungs, and the ones that contain bleach.
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Just take the time it needs, I cleaned mine a bit at a time with Simple Green, 409 and a coupla of other cleaners. Once I was tired of cleaning, I used a automotive vinyl restorer....coupla coats, lightly.....came out great.
Good advise on the grill though I would be hesitant to really wet the wood down....if it warps...you'll be replacing it or putting in screws.
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Well, the whole process on the grille shouldn't much more than 10-15 minutes, and there's not much chance of the wood getting waterlogged in that short amount of time. A lot of blotting with some nice clean towels and it should be nearly dry, some gentle hair dryer-ing afterwards might not hurt also. Make sure that you have the appropriate (SUNN related) music on the stereo (preferably vintage Pioneer, Sansui or similar...) while you're doing this...
Again, watch out for those other people around you who think the bathroom (and it's associated accessories) are strictly for personal uses, besides... what's more personal than bonding with your amp?
:-)
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Attached is a picture of the cab.
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Additional pictures, inside views.
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Well, it looks as though it used to be a 200S cabinet.
How does it sound?
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Well, it looks as though it used to be a 200S cabinet.
How does it sound?
FROM A PREVIOUS POST:
Bad News....the speakers are NOT JBL's. They are Peavey Black widows. (This is not really real bad news. I need to research them to determine wattage, but should be able to use them as part of my 1200S rig). One of them sounds great, the other not so good, pretty muddy and distorted.
The cabinet itself seems to sound ok although it's difficult to tell because of the one bad speaker.
Does anyone have a photo of what the inside of this cab SHOULD look like?
Or a schematic?
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Here's a picture of one of my 200S cabs opened up, next to one of its big brothers. Same depth at 15", but the pic gives you an idea of the difference in size. Notice that the port on the 200S runs the entire width of the cab, and is ducted on the top and bottom.
Your cab looks to be a modified Sorado cab.
I've never owned one, but I believe the following is accurate;
200s cab has the rear loaded horn, horizontal port. Sorado has two tube ports.
The Sorado was a more affordable option to the 200S introduced to the lineup in 1969. It was loaded with "Sunn Transducer" labeled 15" drivers instead of the JBL D140's.
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Ed,
I have to agree, the two port cut-outs instead of the port the entire width of the cab sure would make it seem so. (heavy sigh). I never should have bid on it without pics of the inside. Another lesson learned the hardway.
And I figured that the top speaker should also be baffled by the evident diagonal paint line on the side panel.
I'll probably end up restoring this with speakers that become part of my rig for the 1200S I recently bought. The black widows that came in it will probably suffice if I get the one reconed or something. As I said in an earlier post, one of them sounds fine, the other not so good. Fixed up and in conjunction with a 2 x 12 and a 2 x 10 that I have it should really rumble.
Meanwhile I now will sit and wait for actual 2000S cabs to come along. If nothing else these hard lessons are teaching me patience.
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The cab is 42"X24"X15" isn't it? I'll bet you could modify the baffle with a full width port, fabricate top port ducting to match the bottom, (while you're at it, fabricate a duplicate angle board to replace the bottom one that some idiot carved up) and have a "200S" after all.
All you need are the 140's!
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From the pictures you posted, it looks to me like someone made a new front baffle for the cabinet...one can only wonder why. It looks like the inner pert members are still there...sort of.....Hey...It's still a Sunn...and that ain't all bad.
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I'd say the baffle is original, just carved up a bit. It looks like someone chopped a hole in the bottom duct, probably to fit a ceramic magnet, and decided to just rip out the top port instead of hassling with cutting the hole in that one as well. Interesting port modification in the baffle though.
It might sound great the way it is.
I'm personally not a big believer in exacting cabinet tuning for an instrument cabinet, I don't believe it to be all that important. By nature, the more specifically a bass enclosure is tuned the more frequency specific it becomes, and a bass guitar covers a pretty wide frequency range.
Also, I have it on good authority that in the days before CAD the phrase "that looks about right" was an accepted technical descriptive when designing musical instrument cabinets.
I still think you could run that port the width of the baffle, replace the ducting and have a more or less proper 200S cabinet.
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Ed, I don't understand what you mean by, "By nature, the more specifically a bass enclosure is tuned the more frequency specific it becomes".
Every ported cabinet is tuned to a specific frequency. Sometimes the frequency is a good choice for the driver and cabinet, sometimes not. Often, when the system is tuned to a poor frequency, the result is a very boomy, peaky response, which can give what is known as "one-note" bass. This can also result from a sealed cabinet that is too small. But a driver that is designed to be in a ported cabinet, in a cabinet that is well made and tuned to a good frequency (I'd say 'the proper frequency', but that implies that there is only one best choice) will have the widest frequency range possible for that driver. The reason that Thiele-Small parameters are used is that "that looks about right" very often wasn't even close.
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Ed, I don't understand what you mean by, "By nature, the more specifically a bass enclosure is tuned the more frequency specific it becomes".
Every ported cabinet is tuned to a specific frequency. Sometimes the frequency is a good choice for the driver and cabinet, sometimes not. Often, when the system is tuned to a poor frequency, the result is a very boomy, peaky response, which can give what is known as "one-note" bass. This can also result from a sealed cabinet that is too small. But a driver that is designed to be in a ported cabinet, in a cabinet that is well made and tuned to a good frequency (I'd say 'the proper frequency', but that implies that there is only one best choice) will have the widest frequency range possible for that driver. The reason that Thiele-Small parameters are used is that "that looks about right" very often wasn't even close.
Um... No.
Sure, it is possible to tune a cab to a specific frequency. Yes, it may be somewhat based on the driver you will use. But this is "hi-fi" stuff - where a tuned cab usually means a "bass-reflex" design, and this is the only area where Thiele-Small parameters really mean anything.
Even though it is technically NOT a horn design - the "reverse loaded folded horn" of the 200s (et al) cabs - is not a "tuned" design. It is "untuned".
Tuning a cab, like a bass reflex, does cause a "peak" in the frequency response at the low end. This helps to extend the low end response of a driver. The "Q" determines how peaky this peak actually is, but the tradeoff for a sharper peak is reduced effeciency overall - you can't get something for nothing.
I have a 2x12" closed cab. It is 8 ohms with two 16 ohm drivers wired in paralled. The two drivers are only rated for 40 watts.
I switched out the 2x12" for a single 8 ohm 12" rated for 100 watts and left the other "hole" open. It sounds much better this way, but yeah, I'm only using it for guitar.
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I can't agree, Joe. The 200S cabinet was designed before the advent of T-S theory, true - came to Mr Sundholm in a dream, if reports are true - but it still has all of the design features of a ported, tuned cabinet. When you say that a port creates a peak in the response, I'm not sure what you mean. A properly tuned ported system does not have a peak in the response, unless the designed wanted one there. It is simply not true that every ported design has a response peak. If you like, I'll measure the 200S and tell you what the Fb, the box tuning frequency, is. Conversely, you could try to explain what an "untuned" cabinet design consists of. At least we agree that the so-called "folded horn" design is not a horn.
If your 2x12 sounds better with one 12" removed, great. I'm a firm believer that instrument cabinets are for producing sound, not reproducing sound, and whatever sounds best to the musician using it is what sounds best. I might not agree, but it's not my cabinet or my sound.
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Ed, I don't understand what you mean by, "By nature, the more specifically a bass enclosure is tuned the more frequency specific it becomes".
To attempt a clarification of my statement; what I mean is the porting in any particular enclosure exists to support the directly radiated sound pressure of its driver(s). Generally ports are used to supplement the sound pressure levels at the lower end of a drivers useful range in a theoretical infinite baffle; i.e. a bass reflex design.
The sage JoeArthur nails it again;
Sure, it is possible to tune a cab to a specific frequency. Yes, it may be somewhat based on the driver you will use. But this is "hi-fi" stuff - where a tuned cab usually means a "bass-reflex" design, and this is the only area where Thiele-Small parameters really mean anything.
In Hi-Fi gear, very specific (to the response characteristics of the driver) cabinet tuning can be utilized to maximize the efficiency of the enclosure to a sometimes very specific range, and it’s my opinion that this overly specific tuning is not conducive to natural sounding musical instrument reproduction.
Hi-Fi normally (don’t tell Dr. Bose) requires a mixture of drivers, each with a specific purpose, or frequency range as its responsibility, 2, 3 even 4 way systems are the norm. I won’t even touch multi-amping, which specifies driver frequency responsibility even more precisely utilizing individual amplifier characteristics as well.
As far as instrument reproduction, I wholeheartedly agree with this Isaacism;
If your 2x12 sounds better with one 12" removed, great. I'm a firm believer that instrument cabinets are for producing sound, not reproducing sound, and whatever sounds best to the musician using it is what sounds best. I might not agree, but it's not my cabinet or my sound.
However I don’t understand the relevance of;
The reason that Thiele-Small parameters are used is that "that looks about right" very often wasn't even close.
Lots of wasted plywood no doubt, I know I’ve wasted my share over the years.
However, as you acknowledge, TS parameters weren’t even recognized by the audio design mainstream until the mid/late 70’s, Richard Small didn’t even publish his series of articles until ’73 or so. What parameters did the designers of early MI or Hi-Fi cabinets use?
I suspect that with designers such as Mr. Lansing "that looks about right" was in fact very often very close.
According to my ears, it also worked for Mr. Sundholm.
Of course you can measure the “Fb” of a 200S cab. You could measure the “Fb” of an empty beer can; ask Mr Sundholm how much influence the “Fb” had on his 200S cabinet design, that would be a discussion relevant to the turn this thread has taken.
I guess the question would be the definition of “tuned”. If “tuned” means “on purpose” this won’t hold water, but I think if you want a definition of an untuned cabinet, try any sealed cab. Generally the goal there is to emulate an infinite baffle. The only real influence the cabinet has over its driver(s) other than sound pressure resonation from the cabinet itself is the vacuum/compression damping of the cones excursion.
For bass guitar the directly radiated response of most drivers is subjectively considered to sound better with a little bottom end assist, hence the limited usage of sealed enclosures in a full range application. (I know, I know, the reigning standard is the SVT 8x10) An overly specific tuned reflex port sounds a little too peaky, even boomy to most ears.
In the case of the 200S, there seemed to be a lot more “that looks about right” than actual tuning going on. I think if you cut it in half, you would be closer to an actual tuned reflex cab than with the 2x15 configuration. You definitely get a kick in the bottom end, but I think mainly because not much of the back pressure above 100hz or so can make that turn to get out.
If you pop a 12 out of the closed 2x12, well, it’s tuned (see above) to some resonant frequency. Actually, this missing speaker method is currently in vogue in some boutique circles, and is generally referred to as an “untuned cabinet”. In fact, an amp manufacturer recently recorded demo tracks with one of these “untuned” was a 2x12, uh…now a 112 cabs.
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Reminiscent of the original bass reflex cabinets. Many folks assumed that the proper size of the bass reflex port was the same as the effective radiating area of the driver. That can work in some cases, but usually, it does not. That's the kind of thing I meant when I said that "looks about right" often wasn't even close. Note that I didn't say it wasn't ever right. The 200S cabinet is obviously a good design, however it was arrived at. Lots of designs fit that mold, and they're the ones that last. Bad designs tend to go the way of the dodo.
But I still don't understand what you mean by "the more specifically a bass enclosure is tuned the more frequency specific it becomes". Every bass reflex, ported, or ducted port cabinet is tuned to a specific frequency, whether that frequency was chosen in advance or arrived at by chance. So no such cabinet is more specifically tuned than any other. There are techniques to lower the Q of the tuning frequency. Is this what you're talking about?
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Reminiscent of the original bass reflex cabinets. Many folks assumed that the proper size of the bass reflex port was the same as the effective radiating area of the driver. That can work in some cases, but usually, it does not. That's the kind of thing I meant when I said that "looks about right" often wasn't even close. Note that I didn't say it wasn't ever right. The 200S cabinet is obviously a good design, however it was arrived at. Lots of designs fit that mold, and they're the ones that last. Bad designs tend to go the way of the dodo.
Yes, assuming the size of the port in a bass reflex to be the radiating area of the driver would be a mistake. In the case of a bass reflex design, the port tunes the air inside the enclosure to a particular frequency - usually the resonant frequency of the driver.
IIRC, the smaller the port area the shorter the duct length and the larger the port area the longer the duct length - to maintain the same tuning frequency.
But I still don't understand what you mean by "the more specifically a bass enclosure is tuned the more frequency specific it becomes". Every bass reflex, ported, or ducted port cabinet is tuned to a specific frequency, whether that frequency was chosen in advance or arrived at by chance. So no such cabinet is more specifically tuned than any other. There are techniques to lower the Q of the tuning frequency. Is this what you're talking about?
Every cabinet may have a resonant frequency, but I don't think that implies that a cabinet can't be more specifically tuned. I think I see it more like tuning your guitar to pitch as opposed to just slapping on a set of new strings and randomly turning the pegs. Both will make sound (I know, I've done it!!)
The higher the "Q" the greater the chances are of that resonant air mass producing unwanted sounds - either by continuing to "ring" afterwards or producing a "peak" in the frequency response.
Reducing the "Q" decreases efficiency but extends the frequency response and increasing the "Q" increases efficiency but reduces the frequency response. Just can't get something for nothin'.
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Actually, I thought that statement was pretty much self explanatory.
Well, here goes…
Keeping in mind I have never, or could even see a reason to take a 200S cabinet into an anechoic chamber; I would imagine (“that looks about right") that gaping shelved ports’ response peak to be soft, a more gradual response curve peak, enhancing a broader range of frequency, maybe +/- 1 db 20 – 110 hz? than say a more specifically tuned cabinet, such as a down firing sub used in a multi amped Hi-Fi application, with a response curve peaking hard between 50 and 70 hz. Theoretically, you should be able to pinpoint a port response spike to within a few hz, +/- 3 db whereas an MI cabinet will optimally have a softer more generalized bass enhancement.
The resonant frequency of the box doesn’t determine the port tuning; it’s no doubt a factor, sometimes an obstacle for a specific application, but not the determining factor. Everything has a resonant frequency, when I crank up at home I find the “Fb” of all kinds of regular household items, occasionally with less than favorable results.
If I get motivated, I’ll find links to response curve graphs to illustrate this concept.
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Maybe something like this:
(http://www.members.shaw.ca/LoudSpeakerBuilder.ca/images/thiele%20-%20small%20graph.gif)
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Okay, what you describe is a low-Q resonance. I can live with that.
The box doesn't have a particular frequency, resonant or other wise*. The Fb, or box tuning frequency, is a result of the interaction of the box and the port, which form a Helmholtz resonator.
*True, everything has a resonance frequency. At least one. Each panel of the box will have one, and, if it's braced, each sub-panel will, too. There are resonant peakes determined by the distances between parallel panels, and so on. But those weren't what we were talking about. A sealed box has no particular resonance frequency. That doesn't happen until we add a port, ducted or otherwise.
And Joe, you have the relationships correct as far as port area and length v tuning frequency. The graph is actually of sealed cabinets.
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The cab is 42"X24"X15" isn't it? I'll bet you could modify the baffle with a full width port, fabricate top port ducting to match the bottom, (while you're at it, fabricate a duplicate angle board to replace the bottom one that some idiot carved up) and have a "200S" after all.
All you need are the 140's!
A-Hem!!
I have the D-140F 's
You mean make new front panels so that the port is an opening all the way across the front instead of just the two port cut-outs ? Then a whole new top port ducting for the top speaker and replace the baffle that's cut up? Do I have you right?
Should the Front panel (that the speakers bolt to) be two pieces separated by the port opening?
I think you mean to make it this? http://sunn.ampage.org/site/schematics/foldinghornr.gif (http://sunn.ampage.org/site/schematics/foldinghornr.gif)
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You mean make new front panels so that the port is an opening all the way across the front instead of just the two port cut-outs ?
Yes
Then a whole new top port ducting for the top speaker and replace the baffle that's cut up? Do I have you right?
Yes
Should the Front panel (that the speakers bolt to) be two pieces separated by the port opening?
Yes
I think you mean to make it this? http://sunn.ampage.org/site/schematics/foldinghornr.gif (http://sunn.ampage.org/site/schematics/foldinghornr.gif)
Sort of. That appears to be a 2000S cabinet in the diagram you linked to, same basic layout.
If I were you, I would drop those D140's into the cabinet as it sits, any see how it sounds. You may end up getting me to modify a 200S cab with a jig saw instead of you fabricating pieces for your cab.
I think the port measures 4", but I'm not sure. If the baffle you have will allow the 4" port, you should be able to just use it instead of buying a new sheet of wood. It looks like the ducting is all there on the bottom of your cabinet, albeit carved on. I would think you could emulate the boards and just invert them to create the top ducting, and then replace the chopped up bottom duct board.
Let me know if you are going to do it, and I'll measure a 200S port for you to make sure about the 4" thing.