The sunn Forum
Sunn Musical Equipment => Q & A => Topic started by: EdBass on December 31, 2009, 11:31:23 am
-
IMO, this should make an interesting thread…
I have some questions for the Sunn fanatics on this site. At this point it's purely hypothetical (I'm not trying to estimate pre-sales for an upcoming project! :wink:), but something I've been kicking around for years, and I figure this forum is about the best place to initiate a gauge on public reaction.
Obviously there are no “right” or “wrong” answers, it's simply your personal opinions so it shouldn’t turn argumentative.
So…
If there was an accurate reproduction of a vintage 2 X KT88 Sunn amp available commercially (professionally built and finished, plug 'n play); let's say a 200S for arguments sake, would it be saleable?
Not a reissue (that would involve Fender giving up the name), but a true clone, as faithful to the original as modern components would allow.
SS or tube rectified?
Can a 60-80 watt bass amp actually compete in the current amp world, keeping in mind that a 100 lb super efficient 2 X 15 would both be expensive, and go against the super lightweight trend that seems to be popular?
Certain changes would have to be made; i.e. a three prong power cord, etc., but in light of advances in technology certain other changes would likely be warranted out of pure practicality. In your opinion, what mods from the original would it absolutely have to include to be marketable, and when would it stop being a faithful re-pro and become its own animal?
How much bearing would a factory warranty have on your decision?
If by some stretch of the imagination it were possible, what influence would an actual “Sunn” badge have on its marketability?
Hand wired would be a given, but what if it was produced outside of the US?
Here's the biggie; what would you pay for such a beast? Please think hard and obviously the cheaper the better, but don't just throw out a low number that you would like to see. New, warranted, US built hand wired tube amps in this class generally bring $1500ish give or take. An overseas produced amp would be less costly, but could it retain the Sunn “Mojo” as well as a US built unit, if at all?
Vintage Fender, Marshall, Hiwatt, and other amps have been and are presently cloned with varying degrees of success under the original badge and "boutique", and at the very least Sunn was a more than worthy contender in it's heyday.
Overall, would such an amp be a "loser" or a "winner"?
-
Since you want to produce this amp commercially and perhaps overseas, my opinions are based on a commercial perspective and not a custom client boutique perspective.
I think you could sell a couple to nerds like us... maybe 100 amps.
The weight vs. quality issue is what makes me doubt its success in the new "boutique" marketplace. There are a ton of true vintage amp fans who dont care about weight though. I'm pretty sure finding someone to make a custom neo mag speaker for the cab would be mandatory.
I'm sure anyone who would want one would be using it for guitar. It seems the days for a useable 80w bass amp are just over. You could still advertise it as a "bass" model and I don't think it would confuse your market. Anyone who would be attracted to this amp would have general amp history knowledge and general circuit knowledge in my opinion.
A switch for SS or tube rectification would be cool. It is easy to do, doesnt take up much space, and the extra cost would be minimal. A cool useful feature on a $1500 amp.
Triode/Pentode switch could be cool.
Sunn badge could produce a confusing or negative advertising campaign. You would have to convince people that Fender has nothing to do with it. Obviously, this could only be achieved by taking the amps to tradeshows and getting others in the industry to back it with their word.
Overall I would say 'no' because the market is hard to break into now but I WANT ONE. :-D
-
Hi,
first of all happy new year to all of us!
I did some calculations last year. I think the 200S may be not powerful enough as long as they are not sold with very efficiant cabs. Anyway, the price for a 200S would be app. 600...800€, depending on trannies etc., handmade in the EU.
To me a 2000S with a SS would be very interersting. But to place it on the market you would need the Name SUNN with all it's history.
Well, you buildt the Amp inthe USA, I do help you to sell them here... :-D
Greetings Oli
-
That's a really interesting thought, EB, and a heckuva brain-teaser to start the new year!
While I'm like soberskipper and would want one myself, I don't think you could sell enough of them to make the endeavor worthwhile. The size, weight and relatively lower power (by today's standards) would limit appeal. With already-existing options out there such as Hughes/HiWatt, which have more power, I'm afraid it would be an uphill battle.
And given the Fender association, a Sunn badge might raise more questions than answers and hurt perceived value. Factory warranty a good idea; U.S. manufacture a must. (Tualatin, Ore., would be the best, of course!)
Regarding price, it'd have to be priced less than $2,000 given the lower power. That's my two cents.
CLD
-
Are these amp(s) going to have CSA or UL approval? If so you are in for some very intere$$$ting work to get a design through type and safety approval. Without the Sunn logo you are in the boutique market - probably just break even selling a few. Unfortunately, as you said above, the bass amp design trend is moving towards Class D (quasi class G/H??) powerful, tiny & light with similar design philosophy in the attached loudspeaker.
Mosey over to the Acoustic wiki http://unofficialacousticcontrolcorpmessageboard.yuku.com/topic/2048 (http://unofficialacousticcontrolcorpmessageboard.yuku.com/topic/2048) and read about the trials and tribulations of getting the re-issue version of the 360 into production.
-
In regard to the low wattage....from what I read on other forums, the trend now a-days (for most bar and club performers anyway) seems to be line out into a powerful PA system. Low wattage wouldn't be a problem in that case. Include the addition of a "direct line out" (?? if that's the correct terminology) and make tone the major selling point.
I have to agree though, that for much commercial success I think that the SUNN name would be a must. Otherwise, I think you would just be trying to sell another Boutique/Clone amp (all be it a good one).
I predict a change in the size/weight trend in the near future. From what I'm reading on other forums I believe that many bass players are beginning to "Re-discover" the wonders of 2 X 15 sound.
Maybe a PAIR of 1 x 15's would go over better though. More easily individually transportable.
-
i believe they would sell like hot cakes myself it seems to me everyone including most popular bands are going back to sunn amps or something vintage the main problem i would see is copyright infringment or patent infringment but if they where built in the USA and affordable then yes i belive you could beat out some of the top name brands.
i would focus on the model T's,2000 s ,spectre,1200 and some of the others that had vibrato,tremolo,and reverb no crappy effects driven by solid state thou. :lol:
-
Thanks for the input so far everyone! First, I want to re-emphasize that this is just an exercise at this point.
I would love to see the “Sunn rise again”. When I first started playing, Bassmans and Kustoms were the cool but common bass amps; Sunn’s were the amps I drooled over in the music store (in particular a two cabinet 2000S rig at my local walking distance music store) but could never in a million years afford to own. What the “big guns” played.
Recreating that magic would be a great personal accomplishment, but the chances of it coming to fruition are by no means a “lock”. I figured this forum would be the “best case scenario” for public opinion on the subject.
I'm sure anyone who would want one would be using it for guitar. It seems the days for a useable 80w bass amp are just over. You could still advertise it as a "bass" model and I don't think it would confuse your market. Anyone who would be attracted to this amp would have general amp history knowledge and general circuit knowledge in my opinion.
Excellent point IMO. The guitar crossover has traditionally been a factor in the long term reverence for small amps (small by current bass amps standards; Fender Bassman, and Traynor TBA-1 come to mind), and there seems to be a resurgence of interest in tube bass amps, and even small tube amps. Ashdown is releasing a bass specific 30 watter this year
http://www.ashdownmusic.com/bass/detail.asp?ID=229,
the Alessandro Bassett Hound is well respected; Ultra boutique, from what I can tell a 200S output with a B15N front end
http://www.alessandro-products.com/amp-basset.html,
and of course the venerable 30 watt Ampeg Portaflex (like the one 3 feet to my right as I type this) is still a staple, and the rumor mill buzz is that Ampeg is thinking about reissuing the B15 in a US built, hand wired “Hertitage” version in the near future.
Of course, as with these examples, to me what the amp ultimately gets used for is irrelevant as long as somebody buys it! :wink:
I did some calculations last year. I think the 200S may be not powerful enough as long as they are not sold with very efficiant cabs. Anyway, the price for a 200S would be app. 600...800€, depending on trannies etc., handmade in the EU.
To me a 2000S with a SS would be very interersting. But to place it on the market you would need the Name SUNN with all it's history.
Well, you buildt the Amp inthe USA, I do help you to sell them here... :-D
Glad you chimed in Oli, based on firsthand experience with “boutique” amp manufacturers, the European market is extremely fertile ground for hand built US amps. I worked the Nashville Amp Expo
http://www.nashvilleampexpo.com/
in August and over beers and cigars with the exhibitors after hours the general consensus was that Europe was indeed lucrative, for some more than others.
I spoke to the Reeves Amplification guys just today, and they told me that some of their models sell stronger in the EU than in the US, in fact one successful model has almost exclusively sold in Europe.
If this concept moves further forward you can bet I’ll be picking your brain extensively, brother!
And given the Fender association, a Sunn badge might raise more questions than answers and hurt perceived value. Factory warranty a good idea; U.S. manufacture a must. (Tualatin, Ore., would be the best, of course!)
Regarding price, it'd have to be priced less than $2,000 given the lower power. That's my two cents.
I haven’t even really given any effort towards Sunn badging, but honestly if I thought it were feasible I would love to slap a Sunn badge on such a project. For that matter, somehow also having Mr. Sundholm involved would be the icing on THAT cake.
A Sunn badge is most likely a moot point, but you do raise an interesting wrinkle that I hadn’t thought about with the “more questions than answers” angle.
However, I don’t want to even think about approaching Fender with an offer for the trademark (unless I somehow hit the lottery), and I don’t know but suspect that Mr. Sundholm was done with “Sunn” many “Moons” ago.
The lower the price the better, particularly with bass gear. It’s been my observations that bassist and guitarists are indeed usually two different mindsets, and bassists are notoriously cheap!
It’s obviously not a set rule, and as a bassist myself I’m not trying to “throw stones”, but I’ve seen guitarists regularly pay thousands of dollars for amplification, but bassists generally start to squeal at about a grand.
Are these amp(s) going to have CSA or UL approval? If so you are in for some very intere$$$ting work to get a design through type and safety approval. Without the Sunn logo you are in the boutique market - probably just break even selling a few. Unfortunately, as you said above, the bass amp design trend is moving towards Class D (quasi class G/H??) powerful, tiny & light with similar design philosophy in the attached loudspeaker.
Yep, there are a number of $ub$tantial hurdles, all of which contribute to the ultimate pricing of any product, and certification can be intimidating when it comes to electronic gear manufacturing. In this theoretical scenario I think CE is the most important, particularly based on the International market potential for US built musical gear.
And, IMO you are likely correct that without a Sunn badge boutique would be the market. It’s interesting that you mention the Acoustic situation, seeing all that blue in GC kinds of gets my wheels turning, but that is a market that is MAJOR investment, you have to sell your soul to the Sam Ash or Bain Capital “devils”, and would almost require off shore manufacture and corner cutting production focusing on price, price, price.
All of which I have little interest in being associated with personally, and far too much headache at this point in my life!
Uhmmm… By the way, have you got any more of those dandy knobs? I might need a couple thousand! :roll:
In regard to the low wattage....from what I read on other forums, the trend now a-days (for most bar and club performers anyway) seems to be line out into a powerful PA system. Low wattage wouldn't be a problem in that case. Include the addition of a "direct line out" (?? if that's the correct terminology) and make tone the major selling point.
+100. A direct out would go a long way towards leveling the SPL playing field for a low watt bass amp. A lot of bassists even just run into the PA through a DI with no amp at all.
The problem with that is that they also have no tone at all in my opinion. When I got involved with the Reeves C225 project, the two design parameters I was most insistent on were; a DI off the output transformer to get as much of the tubey tone goodness as possible to the PA if necessary, and 24” width so it wouldn’t look dorky on most modern bass cabs (a personal pet peeve of mine).
A similar DI on this theoretical 200S clone is one of the “in light of advances in technology certain other changes would likely be warranted out of pure practicality” I was referring to in my initial post.
I predict a change in the size/weight trend in the near future. From what I'm reading on other forums I believe that many bass players are beginning to "Re-discover" the wonders of 2 X 15 sound.
Maybe a PAIR of 1 x 15's would go over better though. More easily individually transportable.
Absolutely. 410’s are still dominant, but the trend is changing. Again back to the Reeves; by far the majority of the R&D for the speakers cabinets were done with a Sunn 215S cab.
Loaded with the Reeves designed drivers it sounded the best of the myriad other commercial boxes they bought, and “acoustically balanced” Thiele boxes they built for comparison, by a pretty wide margin too. When the Sunn cab made the rounds of working bassists, to a person they in essence said "sounds great; cut it in half”.
And, that’s where the production Reeves 115 cab came from.
the main problem i would see is copyright infringment or patent infringment
No worries there, the last thing I need is to get in that pickle. If I were to actually do this type of project, covering my assets would be job one for my attorney.
i would focus on the model T's,2000 s ,spectre,1200 and some of the others that had vibrato,tremolo,and reverb no crappy effects driven by solid state thou. :lol:
I’m sure the Model T is a great amp, but my heart lies with the Sundholm era Sunn gear. As I mentioned above, the 30” wide Sunns are a logistical problem from an aesthetic standpoint for me, so the four output amps would have to be re-engineered to fit a smaller chassis while being faithful to the original circuit. Not a problem, but so far beyond this theoretical discussion that it’s probably not relevant to this thread.
I would think that he first step would be no effects at all, and although as a bassist myself it not relevant, I’m no fan of transistors in the signal path, ever.
Thanks again for all the input, and keep ‘em coming!
-
you know you could take and do like everyone is doing with the vintage effects pedal and call it a "clone" hehehe first thing i would do (ive been thinking lol) would be to take and open up a sunn amp that you really want and make a list of all parts you would need to make it and then get pricing and see if its financially possible to it without breaking the bank from what ive gathered from working on mine the thing that cost the most is tubes and transformers, anyway just food for thought
-
You've put a LOT of thought into this, EB! Good for you.
Like you, I'm partial to the Sundholm-era gear (although my Sorado is a '71, the amp and cabs are identical to the earlier ones). Please keep us posted on this project, as I think there will be great interest among forum members as well as beyond.
Also, since you mentioned in one of your latest post on this thread, I'm still intrigued by the Reeves 115 but it'll have to wait for now as I just found a pristine 115RH to pair with my 115V. (UPS should deliver it any minute now.)
CLD
-
Ah, EB didn't realize you had been involved in birth of the Reeves. Big kudos on your insistence on the 24" width. Among other things on that beauty...
Bass Player's perspective: There's a point on the move to lighter amps augmented by DI. But you notice most are pretty powerful in their own right. Probably because you cannot always count on PA support, unless you strictly play at urban music bars. Get hired to play an outdoor party and you love to have that power on your own rig. (I LOVE those cause i can really crank up my amp and feel the air like in the old days 8-) ) So for the player who wants one amp, a lower power head might not work.
But your target would prolly be old geezers like me who love(d) Sunn and can afford to keep more than one amp. There I'm not so sure. A few years ago i sold my last 200s and Sorado heads because of the power issue. Yes, a DI might have helped, but i have no prob with miking a cab. Or using multiple heads. So not sure on the demand from geezer bass players, but, I'm just one moron babbling.
The Reeves is a more practical wattage as is the Orange AD200 (which sell slowly in the used market).
Mr Contrary Indicator.
-
Gerald Weber once told me that a high percentage of his customers were lawyers. Lets say older guys with high disposable incomes that play as hobbyists. Not a huge market. There may also be a small market for studio musicians.
If you try to break into that market, a certain amout of sales will be lost to those who want an "Ampeg" or flat EQ. Customizing the preamp may be permissable under some safety agency rules and you should investigate this. You could try to make a dual channel amp that would be everything to everybody but that is getting away from the original concept.
European sales is a whole 'nother can of worms because of the ROHS regs. Check this thread:
http://music-electronics-forum.com/t8530/
The bottom line is frankly, the bottom line. I don't think sales of a mass produced amp are going to cover the costs. The price and availability of vintage Sunn amps will not drive the sales of new gear to the point that new amp production becomes profitable.
-
Like you, I'm partial to the Sundholm-era gear (although my Sorado is a '71, the amp and cabs are identical to the earlier ones). Please keep us posted on this project, as I think there will be great interest among forum members as well as beyond.
Let me amend my earlier post; Sundholm era designed gear. I will keep the forum posted, however as I alluded to earlier this “project” may well never get beyond the posting stage.
Also, since you mentioned in one of your latest post on this thread, I'm still intrigued by the Reeves 115 but it'll have to wait for now as I just found a pristine 115RH to pair with my 115V. (UPS should deliver it any minute now.)
I don't want this to turn into a Reeves thread, but… For a while now I've been banging away on a new bass specific Reeves product that I suspect will be making it into production soon. I'll get more specific if and when I get the OK from the Reeves “skunkworks” to post about it.
Ah, EB didn't realize you had been involved in birth of the Reeves. Big kudos on your insistence on the 24" width. Among other things on that beauty...
Well, truthfully my involvement mostly stems from being a four decade gigging, convenient, bass playing tone freak with just enough technical knowledge to sort of put my ideas into “geek speak” for the real engineers.
But, being as unbiased as I can, I have to admit that the big Reeves is a freekin’ monster amp.
Bass Player's perspective: There's a point on the move to lighter amps augmented by DI. But you notice most are pretty powerful in their own right. Probably because you cannot always count on PA support, unless you strictly play at urban music bars. Get hired to play an outdoor party and you love to have that power on your own rig. (I LOVE those cause i can really crank up my amp and feel the air like in the old days 8-) ) So for the player who wants one amp, a lower power head might not work.
But your target would prolly be old geezers like me who love(d) Sunn and can afford to keep more than one amp. There I'm not so sure. A few years ago i sold my last 200s and Sorado heads because of the power issue. Yes, a DI might have helped, but i have no prob with miking a cab. Or using multiple heads. So not sure on the demand from geezer bass players, but, I'm just one moron babbling.
The Reeves is a more practical wattage as is the Orange AD200 (which sell slowly in the used market).
I’m on that same “geezer” page as far as using a DI. It’s a last resort, I will mic my rig way before I’ll DI it, and only then if I absolutely can’t use only stage volume alone. You are dead on; I couldn’t get by with a 60 watt amp as my only rig. I’ll play some small venues with a 200S rig only, but I’m fortunate to have as much firepower as I need to bring for anything short of an arena gig. I’m not sure what percentage of the bass amp buying market is in that position though.
Gerald Weber once told me that a high percentage of his customers were lawyers. Lets say older guys with high disposable incomes that play as hobbyists. Not a huge market. There may also be a small market for studio musicians.
Well, what would HE know about it? :roll:
Not surprisingly Mr. Weber is right on target with my personal experience. I learned that analogy was accurate at the first amp show I worked years ago. In an effort to build rapport; I’d ask the attendees about their “bands” and get blank stares about 80% of the time. They largely don’t leave the house with their amps, maybe jam with friends a couple of times a year, but yet they were there to drop a few thousand dollars on an amp. Sometimes a 5 or 6 watt combo that sounds glorious but isn’t loud enough to play a Starbucks. They also generally have the means to drop a couple of thousand like most people drop a couple of hundred; not frivolously, but no skin off their nose either.
Almost “gadget” status rather than “working” status rigs.
Granted though, the attendees at these amp shows are about 99.9% guitarists, with just an occasional bassist floating through and the shows are generally marketed as such. True bassists are a different breed, and I suspect that there are even fewer of the hobbyists you refer to, so the market may be proportionally smaller still.
If you try to break into that market, a certain amout of sales will be lost to those who want an "Ampeg" or flat EQ. Customizing the preamp may be permissable under some safety agency rules and you should investigate this. You could try to make a dual channel amp that would be everything to everybody but that is getting away from the original concept.
Agreed again. The motivation for this concept is actually what a healthy 200S rig sounds like. IMO, it will hold its own with anything tonally, but obviously has some serious limitations regarding SPL and portability.
European sales is a whole 'nother can of worms because of the ROHS regs. Check this thread:
http://music-electronics-forum.com/t8530/
The bottom line is frankly, the bottom line. I don't think sales of a mass produced amp are going to cover the costs. The price and availability of vintage Sunn amps will not drive the sales of new gear to the point that new amp production becomes profitable.
From the outset, I figured there were two diametrically opposed paths to take to approach a rebirth of Sunn.
Using the Acoustic reissue as a model; I believe that Bain Capital could have just as easily resuscitated the Sunn brand for a line of low end imported bass gear and accomplished at least the success the have enjoyed with the Acoustic branded gear. There may be room for a similar endeavor using the Sunn brand for recognition and “instant reputation”, but honestly I don’t know how successful/unsuccessful GC has actually been with the Acoustic project so there is no real basis for comparison.
I’m pretty sure that the margin is “generous”, and the Acoustic reissued gear is certainly inexpensive, so although I’ve never been inside one of the new Acoustic amps, I’m relatively sure they aren’t a real quality build. This doesn’t mean they don’t sound good; in fact the ones I’ve played are on par with the other imported mass produced PCB gear I’ve played IMO.
However, as I alluded to in earlier posts, I don’t have the wherewithal or the interest in being involved with a price driven whore campaign. Well, not again anyway… :wink:
The other path would involve going “boutique”. I’m confident that a small, ultra high end bass amp would pay for itself if it wore a Sunn badge, had concessions to the 21st century but remained basically faithful to the original, and got into the right hands from the outset (certain reviewers, trade magazines, etc.).
I’m also confident that getting the Sunn trademark from Fender would be akin to hell freezing over logistically, and there are plenty of boutique all tube 60 – 100 watt amps available to a limited qualified audience already.
Which means that in essence I’m where I was at the outset of this thread, the posts have been helpful, and have provided some angles I didn’t think of, but haven’t got me any closer to a prototype OR dissuaded me from doing so.
Thanks for the comments, and don’t be shy about posting your thoughts fellow Sunnatics! I certainly appreciate the input, and the more of it I get, the better understanding I’ll have of the “big picture”.
-
Hey EdBass,
Very interesting idea! I suspect that the market for such an amp would be limited. Fewer numbers means higher cost....perhaps more of a boutique amp for old farts like me, guys with the money and studios. I posted a few months ago on another topic thread about the Sunn "clone" kit that Weber (the late Ted Weber) makes. This idea follows the post that Tacklebox455 suggested to a degree.....how about a "clone" kit. Weber's company (I think one of his kids is now running the company) still offers this kit for DIY guys that are handy with a soldering iron. Weber made many changes to the classic Sunn (Dynaco-based) circuit....I think to accommodate both commonly available vacuum tubes and, perhaps, off-shore manufacturing (most , if not all of the components, are made in China, I suspect). You can go to his website and compare the schematic to Sunn's original schematics.....the phase inverter is different, the tone stack is different and it doesn't use an unltralinear output transformer. I have not built one of Weber's Sunn "clones", so I don't know how his design compares to an original Sunn amp. I did build one of his 18 watt Marshall clones for my son about 2 years ago though and it sounds great.
On a related note, I recently purchase a Carvin BR515N bass combo.... a very current bass combo design with a Class D power amp, neodymium speaker, tube pre-amp, etc......pretty much state-of-the-art for bass amplification. I own a ton of vintage Sunn tube bass amps and even a 1967 Ampeg B-15....these are my standards for bass amps. But I was tired of hauling my Ampeg and Sunn amps to jams with my buddies. So I succumbed to the allure of light weight, tone flexibility....the Carvin really does a great job.
Ryan
-
as far as I'm concerned I would still look for the original as opposed to a 'clone' or whatever. i don't know, original mojo or something. I have a few traynors, and a couple sunns. why would I buy something based off the original when the original is readily available? they have to become very scarce for me to shell out for a new old skool wired amp.
as for the low wattage boutique styled amps bass or guitar. giver. that is probably where you would sell some. or the customs. somebody comes in with a specific request. my favorite wattages? 40-60 for bass driving a 215 so it can get growly and nasty and under 15watts class A for guitar.
came in late, skimmed the thread hope I'm not redundant
just 2cents
-
Some more random thoughts on a Sunn clone. Triode Electronics produces a kit to build your own Dynaco Mark III power amp knock-off. As we all know, the first "Smiley Face" heads were simply the Dynaco power amp with a 2-tube pre-amp (also adapted from a Dynaco pre-amp) built into a small aluminum "Bud" box. All this was mounted in a simple tolexed cabinet. I think it would be fairly simple to gear up for a small production run of these.
Triode also offers the transformers separately (I've used them to repair failed Sunn transformers...a direct drop-in replacement). So you could make a clone of the 200S. You'd need have the chassis made, but the point-to-point wiring would be pretty simple.
Again, probably a limited demand for these, but not too difficult to do.
Ryan
-
Some more random thoughts on a Sunn clone. Triode Electronics produces a kit to build your own Dynaco Mark III power amp knock-off. As we all know, the first "Smiley Face" heads were simply the Dynaco power amp with a 2-tube pre-amp (also adapted from a Dynaco pre-amp) built into a small aluminum "Bud" box. All this was mounted in a simple tolexed cabinet. I think it would be fairly simple to gear up for a small production run of these.
Triode also offers the transformers separately (I've used them to repair failed Sunn transformers...a direct drop-in replacement). So you could make a clone of the 200S. You'd need have the chassis made, but the point-to-point wiring would be pretty simple.
Again, probably a limited demand for these, but not too difficult to do.
Ryan
Probably a little too easy in fact. :wink:
I'm thinking about something a bit more sophisticated but retaining the classic Sunn vibe/tone. Besides, I think it would be sort of sacrilegious to just knock off Conrad Sundholm's original idea.
I'm cooking up some designs and cost analysis projections, that should keep me busy for a few months.
Again I appreciate all of the input, it's easy to get creatively "mired down" unless you can bounce some ideas off of others and get some fresh perspectives.
-
Hey EdBass!
I agree that it would be good to add some modern innovations to the classic Sunn design. But I wouldn't be too worried about copying Conrad's "original" design. The "Smiley Face" amps were literally Dynaco Mark III power amps with the pre-amp adapted from Dynaco designs, so it wasn't all that original. But it was a smart idea to adapt a hi-fi amp (read clean and undistorted) for bass amplification. The 200S was improved but not radically different; compare the schematics. In retrospect, I'm surprised Sunn didn't run into legal problems with Dynaco (perhaps they did?).
No criticism here, after all Leo Fender adapted existing Western Electric designs for his amps as well. And Jim Marshall based his first amp on Fender's 5F6A Bassman (with some tweaks). I think Conrad was doing the same thing. And we may have different ideas about what "original" means. I guess the point is that truly original engineering has been rather limited in the last few decades of vacuum tube amp design. Improvements, variations, adaptations for sure, but it's been based upon a backbone of vacuum tube amp designs that stretch back around 80 years.
Take a look at Ted Weber's 6S100 schematic and you'll see changes (or improvements if you will)....different tone stack, added presence and master volume, etc. Lots of ideas borrowed from other amp designs, but adapted to a push-pull KT88 output section. So I think Ted's approach was much like the one you propose, build upon an existing, classic design. That's really been the history of vacuum tube intrument amps in my opinion. Keep us all posted on your progress; I think this is a cool idea. We'll all be very interested to see what you come up with!
Ryan>
-
Hey EdBass!
I agree that it would be good to add some modern innovations to the classic Sunn design. But I wouldn't be too worried about copying Conrad's "original" design. The "Smiley Face" amps were literally Dynaco Mark III power amps with the pre-amp adapted from Dynaco designs, so it wasn't all that original. But it was a smart idea to adapt a hi-fi amp (read clean and undistorted) for bass amplification. The 200S was improved but not radically different; compare the schematics. In retrospect, I'm surprised Sunn didn't run into legal problems with Dynaco (perhaps they did?).
No criticism here, after all Leo Fender adapted existing Western Electric designs for his amps as well. And Jim Marshall based his first amp on Fender's 5F6A Bassman (with some tweaks). I think Conrad was doing the same thing. And we may have different ideas about what "original" means. I guess the point is that truly original engineering has been rather limited in the last few decades of vacuum tube amp design. Improvements, variations, adaptations for sure, but it's been based upon a backbone of vacuum tube amp designs that stretch back around 80 years.
Take a look at Ted Weber's 6S100 schematic and you'll see changes (or improvements if you will)....different tone stack, added presence and master volume, etc. Lots of ideas borrowed from other amp designs, but adapted to a push-pull KT88 output section. So I think Ted's approach was much like the one you propose, build upon an existing, classic design. That's really been the history of vacuum tube intrument amps in my opinion. Keep us all posted on your progress; I think this is a cool idea. We'll all be very interested to see what you come up with!
Ryan>
Thanks for the input, Ryan. I guess I wasn't clear, when I said " knock off Conrad Sundholm's original idea" I meant his idea to shove a Mark III in a box with a modified PAM-1 for bass guitar use.
A true masterpiece of ingenuity, IMO!
While I'm no EE, I have spent considerable hours studying and playing with amplifier circuits. I have several '67-'70 100S and 200S amps as well as a split chassis Sunn for test reference, and I'm pretty familiar with the Mark III. I built my first and second Dynakits in the early 70's for my home stereo. My buddy's Dad had a pair of McIntosh MC60's and they were the grail, this was my "poor kid's" version. :lol:
The availability and pricing of parts (particularly the Triode iron) weigh heavily in my 200S "clone" concept.
As far as legal issues with Dynaco, I've always assumed that Conrad used Dynakits and not factory built Dynacos for the early amps, and if that's so he essentially just bought parts from Dynaco; not a manufactured amplifier. I'll bet it's an interesting story none the less! :wink:
Regardless, as you inferred; Ain't nothin' new in tube amp design. It's pretty much "fair game" from a proprietary design perspective.
I've got rough circuit design sketches and notes ranging from near stock 100S, to 100S/200S hybrid tone stacks, to modified beyond recognition circuits. It's easy to get carried away, IMO much of the beauty of the original Sunn gear was in it's relative simplicity.
Truthfully, the amp is the easy part. The hard part is accurately gauging public acceptance and advance marketing planning to avoid a fiscal "black hole".
My right brain is ready to commission chassis and boxes, but I'm old enough and wise enough to realize that if I can't reconcile my left brain with it, this idea won't get past the "talking" stage. :-D
-
One of the biggest reasons I bought my Solarus was because it was the cheapest amp I could find that was true point to point.
I think it would be amazing if Sunn could make a comeback, so long as they stuck to their roots. It would really make me happy as a hobbyist and guitar nerd to walk into a guitar shop and see new Sunn amps that I knew were built to the same specs as the originals.
As far as a low powered 200S succeeding commercially, I can't speak to that, since I only play guitar. But I can say with absolute certainty, if I could buy a brand new Model T, built to the exact same standard as they were in 1974, with nary a PCB to be seen, I would do it in a heart beat.
-
Hey Edbass,
Thanks for taking my comments as they were intended. I did not intend to flame you.....I think we are totally on the same wavelength. Sorry if I misconstrued your comments. Yeah, I 'm sure Sunn purchased Dynaco kits and just assembled them. I agree with you.....making the amp is the easy part (and of course would be the fun part). As you say, the trick is figuring out the market acceptance... is this a commercially viable endeavor, or just an affair of the heart? I can see how one would do this just for the fun / cool factor! Thanks man!
Ryan
-
EdBass
Being a long time Sunn fan, I'm excited at the prospect that a "clone" might be developed and possibly be on the market, and from what I've read in the posts, a lot of people feel the same way.
What kind of speakers would be used in the new amps? Would they be a JBL clone or a similar speaker of similar output? Part of Sunn's sound quality, clarity, and volume can be directly contributed to Conrad's use of JBL speakers. Back in the day the JBL 's were far and above any other speaker in efficiency and sound quality. The efficiency of the speaker made the 40 and 60 watt Sunns sound like they had much more power. According to Fender ads, Eminence manufactures some sort of a D130 clone for their "65 Twin Reverb Custom 15" amp. There is a picture of the amp - front and back - on their website under their Vintage amps. The speaker magnet is ceramic and kind of looks like a JBL "E" series. Check out the web site. Perhaps a similar speaker could be contracted for the Sunn project.
Several people have brought up the subject of the amps power - citing that they didn't think that a 60 watt amp would be powerful enough. Seems to me that a lot of musicians are now mikeing the amps, or running direct into a PA system. However, for those who do want more power would it be possible to combine the preamp section of say a 220S, 100S, or Sentura with the power amp section of the Coliseum PA head which had 4 KT88's and more power? I'm not that well versed with electronics so I'm not sure if what I suggest can even be done.
All in all, I believe that a Sunn clone, true to the original ( as much as possible - or even with some added features ) hand wired, would be a worthwhile project...even if it does turn out to be a limited production amp.
Rob
-
What you suggested is basically the 2000S, which was around 120-150 watts RMS. Thats enough power to keep up with a 40 watt tube amp that a guitarist is playing, but to keep up with more than that and still be clean, you need bigger power, or mic through the PA, which changes the sound and feel on stage, which affects the player. There is a reason amps like the Ampeg SVT (300 watts RMS) are still so coveted, and expensive. You could make something along the lines of the Sunns that would be similar, but it would be very expensive and heavy!
greg
-
Well, I am not a Sunn fanatic, enthusiast more likely and a bass player. IMO 60-80 watts is not enough to gig with. And for what it would cost to build one a person could most likely buy a real 200s and have it retubed and re-capped.
Fender got it right when they produced the 300t. It is an excellent example of a modern all-tube bass amplifier. I really don't think bassists give a hoot if an amp is point to point wired or circuit board. It's performance that matters.
I have a 200S and wouldn't consider using it at even the smallest gig. I love the 300t through it's 215, but that head is just so darn heavy it's a pain to transport. The 215 is big but not terribly heavy and easy to tip into the back of the van.
What would appear to me as a bassist would be at least a 200 watt head that weighs less than 50 pounds and has the Sunn tone and vibe.
-
What you suggested is basically the 2000S, which was around 120-150 watts RMS. Thats enough power to keep up with a 40 watt tube amp that a guitarist is playing, but to keep up with more than that and still be clean, you need bigger power, or mic through the PA, which changes the sound and feel on stage, which affects the player. There is a reason amps like the Ampeg SVT (300 watts RMS) are still so coveted, and expensive. You could make something along the lines of the Sunns that would be similar, but it would be very expensive and heavy!
greg
Greg,
From what I read, EdBass would like to keep the amp head at 24" wide - as were the early Conrad designs. The 1000S, 1200S, etc. had 4 KT88/6550's but were all 30" wide amps. The original Coliseum PA head was 24" wide and had 4 KT88's.
Rob
-
What you suggested is basically the 2000S, which was around 120-150 watts RMS. Thats enough power to keep up with a 40 watt tube amp that a guitarist is playing, but to keep up with more than that and still be clean, you need bigger power, or mic through the PA, which changes the sound and feel on stage, which affects the player. There is a reason amps like the Ampeg SVT (300 watts RMS) are still so coveted, and expensive. You could make something along the lines of the Sunns that would be similar, but it would be very expensive and heavy!
greg
Greg,
From what I read, EdBass would like to keep the amp head at 24" wide - as were the early Conrad designs. The 1000S, 1200S, etc. had 4 KT88/6550's but were all 30" wide amps. The original Coliseum PA head was 24" wide and had 4 KT88's.
Rob
Yeah I was just saying that the 4 x KT88 thing with a preamp similar to a 200S has already been done...ala the Sunn 2000S. Incidentally, the 2000S had LOTS of room inside the chassis and it could be made less wide with some layout changes and could work just fine on a smaller chassis providing good layout rules were used.
Greg
-
Greg,
From what I read, EdBass would like to keep the amp head at 24" wide - as were the early Conrad designs. The 1000S, 1200S, etc. had 4 KT88/6550's but were all 30" wide amps. The original Coliseum PA head was 24" wide and had 4 KT88's.
Rob
[/quote]
Yeah I was just saying that the 4 x KT88 thing with a preamp similar to a 200S has already been done...ala the Sunn 2000S. Incidentally, the 2000S had LOTS of room inside the chassis and it could be made less wide with some layout changes and could work just fine on a smaller chassis providing good layout rules were used.
Greg
[/quote]
Hi, there was a Sorado a couple of weeks ago on eBay. It got 4 KT88 in it, but it had the size of an ordinary Sorado. The heat of the powertubes might be a problem...? Anyway, the fan in the Ampegs were always a turn off for me. I read the "Gitarre&Bass" (biggest mag in town for guitar&bass equipment) every mounth and it is always a fat minus in the test when they check an amp with a loud fan...and they are right, there is nothing more awful than a fan noise on the drum mics in a studio. So the Sunn solution is perfect: No extra energy (I like this personally as I'm an degreed engineer for cleantech :wink:) and no extra noise :-D.
...by the way: the DIY SUNN amps seem to get more and more interesting:
http://cgi.ebay.de/Dynaco-MKIII-Mk3-Transformer-Bundle-DIY-Tube-Amp-Sunn_W0QQitemZ380192858784QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVintage_Electronics_R2?hash=item588542a2a0
Greetings
Oli
-
I rather doubt it. Id Fender couldnt make a go of it with the Sunn Badge reissues model T's, than what makes you think you could? I mean, sure, you could sell some, most likelty here on this forum and ebay and through word of mouth.
In the end, I don;t think it would get the real deal tone, simply cause the magic is in those old Dynaco hand wound X-formers. Of course, that never stopped Fender from reissueing their old Tweeds and Blakfaces.
Heyboars and Mercury Magnetics come close, ut at the end of the day its all about the old irion, and this is especially true with Sunn.
-
Jerry, i wonder just how close the sound would really have to be?
The Orange purists reject the AD200 MK3 for having a totally different sound than the earlier models, but it sells pretty well for an expensive amp. I use a new one and think it sounds great. In fact, I have no clue what a "real" Orange bass head should sound like and really don't care.
In the case of Sunns, there certainly are many more recordings and live sound you could compare a reissue to. But, my own experience with Sunns was that the bass (and strings) I used, the cab and even the venue were equally as important in producing the tone on a given night. For what that's worth.
That's not to say that you and a good number of others would not notice a difference with different trannies. That's one reason why there is a replacement tranny business out there.
But I wonder if it would be enough of a difference to most of us tone-deaf dolts to doom the project?
-
I rather doubt it. Id Fender couldnt make a go of it with the Sunn Badge reissues model T's, than what makes you think you could? I mean, sure, you could sell some, most likelty here on this forum and ebay and through word of mouth.
shure, you are right, you could sell it like a "boutique amp". Ed is right, there is a huge market for boutique amps in europe, esp. made in UK /USA. I'm not an expert but in this very moment the Polish amp ampmanufactures get on the german market, high quality, good prices. On the other hand www.thommann.de is selling some USA made amps exclusive in their store.
My first thought about the production line was something I work with: I designed a special control for a air cleaning system. Though I do not produce them, this does an electrician for me on demand. He is always heaving gabs in his dayly job where he does assemble them. He adds something like 25% on the parts and sells the control - I put on the software and do the fine tuning. Good deal for everybody, it's nice extra money. My first idea was to do this with the amps aswell, working with "spare" time.
By the way, I do not think I can sell hundrets of amps here. This project should be a combi of "waking up" this great amp design and get some spare money with one thing I really do enjoy.
Greetings
Oli
-
What kind of speakers would be used in the new amps? Would they be a JBL clone or a similar speaker of similar output? Part of Sunn's sound quality, clarity, and volume can be directly contributed to Conrad's use of JBL speakers. Back in the day the JBL 's were far and above any other speaker in efficiency and sound quality. The efficiency of the speaker made the 40 and 60 watt Sunns sound like they had much more power. According to Fender ads, Eminence manufactures some sort of a D130 clone for their "65 Twin Reverb Custom 15" amp. There is a picture of the amp - front and back - on their website under their Vintage amps. The speaker magnet is ceramic and kind of looks like a JBL "E" series. Check out the web site. Perhaps a similar speaker could be contracted for the Sunn project.
I’ve got some ideas, IMO a 115 would be the obvious choice for an initial speaker offering, and I recently had an opportunity to work on a “no compromise” 115 project using someone else’s R&D money, so I’ve got a “leg up” so to speak.
I’ve had conversations with some big league speaker builders over the years regarding the D and K series JBL drivers. My all time favorite bass guitar speaker is the K140, but the idea of cloning one is probably unrealistic. The truth of the matter is that if there were truly a market for the old AlNiCo JBL’s, they would probably still be in production, or somebody would have already cloned them. It’s not like its rocket science or black magic, Eminence or WGS could build a K140 at will.
But… they don’t. If they thought they could make money by developing them, odds are it would already have been done.
But, as I’ve posted repeatedly this is a theoretical discussion, and getting the pulse on the market (starting with Sunn-o-philes) regarding the amp probably needs to take precedence over speakers.
All in all, I believe that a Sunn clone, true to the original ( as much as possible - or even with some added features ) hand wired, would be a worthwhile project...even if it does turn out to be a limited production amp.
I agree. I am sure that there will be at least one built. :wink:
Well, I am not a Sunn fanatic, enthusiast more likely and a bass player. IMO 60-80 watts is not enough to gig with. And for what it would cost to build one a person could most likely buy a real 200s and have it retubed and re-capped.
With modern sound reinforcement technology, you can play an arena with a 30 watt Ampeg B15N if you want to. There are many bassists that use only Sansamp or similar DI devices in a live setting and their output is measured in milliwatts.
I’ve retubed and recapped several 200S’s, and it actually costs less to refurbish a vintage one than it costs to build one from scratch. However, as far as I know the 200S has been out of production for close to 40 years, so there are no new ones available and product support is nonexistent.
Fender got it right when they produced the 300t. It is an excellent example of a modern all-tube bass amplifier. I really don't think bassists give a hoot if an amp is point to point wired or circuit board. It's performance that matters.
Well, I’m a bassist and I care! I think hand wired amps are much more user friendly when it comes to repairs and maintenance, and while I don’t have a real problem with PCB’s, the ones in production amps are generally flimsy compared to a robust eyelet/turret board/point to point hand wired amp.
Actually there are a lot of people who are less interested in a “disposable” PCB amp than in an old school “boat anchor”, but considerably more people who will buy a cheap price point over buying quality.
The well respected Orange AD200 (which I personally think sounds great) actually mounts tube sockets and input/output jacks to PCB’s. Sure, it’s quicker and cheaper to produce, but how many load in and load outs will that type of construction survive? 5 years, 10 years? Who knows, conceivably forever; but I wouldn’t feel overly confident touring one without factory “hand holding” and a backup real close by.
So… like I’ve insinuated earlier, the issues with the idea that this thread is based on largely are much more perception and marketing based than actually product performance based.
Thanks for your input, and I know that a lot of people are in the same “camp” as you are and it’s one of the biggest challenges to this “concept”
I have a 200S and wouldn't consider using it at even the smallest gig. I love the 300t through it's 215, but that head is just so darn heavy it's a pain to transport. The 215 is big but not terribly heavy and easy to tip into the back of the van.
What would appear to me as a bassist would be at least a 200 watt head that weighs less than 50 pounds and has the Sunn tone and vibe.
I gig with a 200S rig regularly in an R&B band without PA support in a 150 person venue. Sounds great IMO, and I’m pretty critical about my sound. Of course, as Rob mentions, the D140 loaded 200S cab has a lot to do with that.
That’s a tough spec to fill. IMO the only way that would be possible would be using a switching power supply instead of a power transformer. A lot of purists seem to feel that the PT has influence over the tone of an amp, I’m not one of them.
But… as I keep harping on, IMO the true challenge is defining the market rather than designing an amp.
What you suggested is basically the 2000S, which was around 120-150 watts RMS. Thats enough power to keep up with a 40 watt tube amp that a guitarist is playing, but to keep up with more than that and still be clean, you need bigger power, or mic through the PA, which changes the sound and feel on stage, which affects the player. There is a reason amps like the Ampeg SVT (300 watts RMS) are still so coveted, and expensive. You could make something along the lines of the Sunns that would be similar, but it would be very expensive and heavy!
greg
Greg,
From what I read, EdBass would like to keep the amp head at 24" wide - as were the early Conrad designs. The 1000S, 1200S, etc. had 4 KT88/6550's but were all 30" wide amps. The original Coliseum PA head was 24" wide and had 4 KT88's.
Rob
Yeah I was just saying that the 4 x KT88 thing with a preamp similar to a 200S has already been done...ala the Sunn 2000S. Incidentally, the 2000S had LOTS of room inside the chassis and it could be made less wide with some layout changes and could work just fine on a smaller chassis providing good layout rules were used.
Greg
While I agree that a 4 X KT88 amp would have a much broader appeal overall, there are specific reasons why I based this exercise on a 2 X KT88 configuration.
Most influential is Ashdown and Ampeg’s decision to produce high dollar, low wattage bass amps. I’m small potatoes, but those boys are big league, and if their high dollar market research determined that the market was there, who am I to argue?
This isn’t to say it’s a lead pipe cinch, but it certainly adds some credence to the idea!
Also, the availability of crucial components at a reasonable price point with virtually no R&D; i.e. the Triode iron and shared technology with the ever popular Dynaco amps factors in strongly.
Whatever it may end up being (provided of course it should end up “being” at all…), I think the 24” wide chassis is a given from a practicality standpoint.
...by the way: the DIY SUNN amps seem to get more and more interesting:
http://cgi.ebay.de/Dynaco-MKIII-Mk3-Transformer-Bundle-DIY-Tube-Amp-Sunn_W0QQitemZ380192858784QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVintage_Electronics_R2?hash=item588542a2a0
See above. And like the 24” spec…. NO FREEKIN’ FANS!
I rather doubt it. Id Fender couldnt make a go of it with the Sunn Badge reissues model T's, than what makes you think you could? I mean, sure, you could sell some, most likelty here on this forum and ebay and through word of mouth.
It’s all relative; within a 12 mo. window, if you were to drop $50K on NAMM, and another $250K or so on internet and print, I believe you could sell just about anything to anybody.
FMIC has done an absolutely phenomenal job with the majority of their products in the last 20 years IMO, but re-issuing Sunn wasn’t one of them. I have no inside knowledge, but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the Sunn badge gets reborn, probably on a low level line of SS bass amps. Just a guess, we’ll see what happens…
In the end, I don;t think it would get the real deal tone, simply cause the magic is in those old Dynaco hand wound X-formers. Of course, that never stopped Fender from reissueing their old Tweeds and Blakfaces.
Heyboars and Mercury Magnetics come close, ut at the end of the day its all about the old irion, and this is especially true with Sunn.
It can and has been argued to death in many expert discussions, and I’m a believer in “mojo” also, but I’ve been to enough rodeos in the last 40 years to realize that metal is metal. I really can’t tell the difference between a Triode PT and a Dynaco in my 200S’s with my ears.
Heyboer can pretty much knock off anything, and I have far less experience with Mercury but I’m sure they are the same. It’s pretty much about how much you want to spend on R&D.
Now, I can’t say the same for vacuum tubes…
The Orange purists reject the AD200 MK3 for having a totally different sound than the earlier models, but it sells pretty well for an expensive amp. I use a new one and think it sounds great. In fact, I have no clue what a "real" Orange bass head should sound like and really don't care.
Well, my previous comments on the Orange certainly don’t mean that it isn’t a real nice amp. Sound wise I personally think it holds its own with a vintage Orange, and would buy one for my personal use without hesitation if a “deal” popped up. My comments about the construction are accurate though, and do reflect opinions I’ve heard from “boutique” aficionados.
However one of the main contributing factors to the “expensive” part is the fact that it’s imported from the UK (largely exchange rate, they need to maintain a stable US price point whether the Pound is at $2.95 or $1.90). A great example is the Hiwatt amps, a UK CP103 has a MSRP of $4949 and a street price of around $3400, while a US built Reeves CP103 is $2000. I’m not at liberty elaborate on how “identical” the amps are, but suffice to say the biggest difference in price is where they are built, and the fact that Reeves is factory direct.
In the case of Sunns, there certainly are many more recordings and live sound you could compare a reissue to. But, my own experience with Sunns was that the bass (and strings) I used, the cab and even the venue were equally as important in producing the tone on a given night. For what that's worth.
I agree 100%; there are many factors that go into a rigs sound beyond the amp itself. Many moons ago a very sage FOH engineer stopped me during one of my long winded dissertations about sound reinforcement (yeah, I’ve always rambled on, this isn’t just a recent habit of mine :roll:) and corrected my use of the term “enclosure” when referring to a PA cab at a large venue I was working as a roadie. He said “look around kid, everything between the driver and an infinite baffle is the enclosure, not just that box you’re pointing to. Now get back to doing what you’re being paid to do”.
I got all tweaked off at him, but I never forgot the lesson.
Thanks again for all the input, everyone. Again, I can’t say what this will come to if anything, but it’s a great exercise regardless!
-
Hey Ed,
If you don't have them or haven't read them, you should take a look at Kevin O' Connor's series of books. He mentions in one of them (escapes me which one at the moment) some things about switching power supplies and the problems with using them in tube amps. Might be helpful to you to check it out. I can let you know which book it is in if you give me a couple days to look it up.
Also, I hear what you're saying about the influence of the power supply on the sound of an amp, and I would say that while it has less influence over the tone than does the output transformer, it is still a very important attribute to the overall sound. I would say though that it is most noticeable when comparing any adequately designed power supply as compared to one that is not adequately designed. For example, many Silvertone amps have undersized power supplies and caps and you can hear that in the sound, especially when trying bass through one. Most of the Sunn stuff had great power transformers, but the filtering could stand to be upgraded for a bass. HiWatts sound fantastic for bass, partly because they had a very good power supply design with fantastic transformers. I'm with you on Heyboer though...they can do just about anything and make great stuff. I'm using their OT and choke in a current clone of a Vox AC100. I should be able to use it for guitar or bass, which is cool. I should be able to get those mid '64 - late '65 Beatles guitar and bass tones with it once I get it done.....
Greg
-
Greg, please do let me know in which O'Connor book he addresses the switching power supplys. I'm generally on the same page as you regarding power supplies and bass amps; the more the merrier. However my tube rectified B15N and Sunn 200S's are among my all time tonal favorites, so maybe a little "sag" ain't all bad! :wink:
-
Alright Ed, I'll see if I can find which book he talks about it in and where he says it....I should be able to let you know in a day or so.
I agree with the Sunn sounding good with the vintage style filtering......though I think it sounds just as well but better with more filtering on the first two sections for bass anyway.....The real key is that cabinet with the JBL's.....
Anyway I'll let you know what I can find soon.
greg
-
On a related subject... one thing I've noticed is that the schematic usually seen for the 200S does not match any of the amps I have with regards to the Lo Boost switch. I have a 67 200S, 69 Sorado and a 72 190B. All are wired like the 2000S schematic usually seen. I have modified a scan of the 190B schematic which has a different Hi Boost switch than the older amps. One final thing I noticed on the 190B schematic is the seemingly missing components from the junction of R10 and C6 to ground. This is a significant deviation from the typical Fender type tone control network. I verified that the 190B is actually wired like the schematic. The 190B also has a solid state high voltage supply that uses a pair of 600V 20uF caps.
-
NO FREEKIN’ FANS!
Ohh, I thought this is what this page is all about.... :wink:
Anyway, a big thanks to Ed for the start of this great tropic.
-
"QUOTE" I’ve had conversations with some big league speaker builders over the years regarding the D and K series JBL drivers. My all time favorite bass guitar speaker is the K140, but the idea of cloning one is probably unrealistic. The truth of the matter is that if there were truly a market for the old AlNiCo JBL’s, they would probably still be in production, or somebody would have already cloned them.
[color=black] EdBass, Back in the late 70's or early 80's I remember reading that JBL developed the "E" series speakers with the Ceremic magnets because the price of AlNiCo was getting too expensive and the selling price of the speaker was getting prohibitive. Perhaps that is still the case today.
Rob
-
There are all kinds of alnico speakers made these days, and sure they are more expensive due to the mojo and the price of cobalt which is a strategic material and is not abundant except in South Africa and Russia, and also happens to be a key ingredient in alnico 5 that speaker magnets are made from, but JBL could make speakers like the old D and K series if they wanted na dpeople would buy them. The bulk of speaker purchases come from car and home audio and PA's and the market for musical instrument speakers isn't big enough for JBL to bother doing anything about it. Ted Weber loved the old JBL D series and made some very good neo magnet versions that his company sells, but I haven't tried one yet. Thats about it thats out there for JBL D series unless you want to buy old ones.
Greg
P.S. Ed, I'm still looking for that info for you in between looking for work, fixing an Epiphone LP and fixing a noisy Magnatone 260. Didn't want you to think I forgot. :)
-
Yet another "too small to be practical" bass amp from a well established boutique builder.
http://www.spheresound.com/productDetail.cfm?ProductID=219
This one is a nearly a direct B15 knockoff. I wonder how the 6SN7 preamp would sound with a 2 X KT88 output stage?
-
From everything I read,t he 6SN7 is a fantastic sounding tube...similar gain levels to a 12AU7 but MUCH better sounding. So I figure the 12Au7 already sounds quite nice, the 6SN7 must really be nice. I would think as long as it could provide the current those KT88's would like to see, it should work fine.
Ed, I'm still looking for the switching power supplies thing in the KOC books. I know I've seen it somewhere but will have to sit down and leaf through them until I find it. I have to look in them anyway for some channel switching options so maybe I'll find it soon.
Greg
-
Hey Ed,
I know I've seen the info about switching power supplies in the KOC books but haven't found it yet in TUT1, TUT2, TUT3, or Principles of Power. The TUT4,TUT5, and TUT6 deal with power scaling so it could very well be in them, but those are bigger to read through so it may be a bit still.
What I remember from reading it years ago was that there are reasons for not doing it in tube amps.....but I glossed over it at the time so I don't remember why.
greg
-
Hey Ed,
I know I've seen the info about switching power supplies in the KOC books but haven't found it yet in TUT1, TUT2, TUT3, or Principles of Power. The TUT4,TUT5, and TUT6 deal with power scaling so it could very well be in them, but those are bigger to read through so it may be a bit still.
What I remember from reading it years ago was that there are reasons for not doing it in tube amps.....but I glossed over it at the time so I don't remember why.
greg
It just occurred to me that Kevin O'Connor is London Power, right? I'll ask the Reeves guys, they license their power scaling from them (him?), and could probably shed some light on the issue for me. Interestingly enough, a few years ago while grunting away schlepping a C225 into the Reeves shop, I told their head tech that he should build the big amps with switching power supplies. He said it that off the top of his head he thought could be done, but the purists would claim that it affected the tone, and probably balk at the lack of conventional power transformers.
Of course, that didn't stop Peavey. Their Pro VB-3 300 eight EL34, four 12AX7 and one 12AT7 bass amp uses a switching PS.
300 tube watts; 37 freekin' lbs, amazing. Those Peavey guys have got it goin' on, and have been doing a phenomenal job for decades IMO.
-
Hey Ed,
I know I've seen the info about switching power supplies in the KOC books but haven't found it yet in TUT1, TUT2, TUT3, or Principles of Power. The TUT4,TUT5, and TUT6 deal with power scaling so it could very well be in them, but those are bigger to read through so it may be a bit still.
What I remember from reading it years ago was that there are reasons for not doing it in tube amps.....but I glossed over it at the time so I don't remember why.
greg
It just occurred to me that Kevin O'Connor is London Power, right? I'll ask the Reeves guys, they license their power scaling from them (him?), and could probably shed some light on the issue for me. Interestingly enough, a few years ago while grunting away schlepping a C225 into the Reeves shop, I told their head tech that he should build the big amps with switching power supplies. He said it that off the top of his head he thought could be done, but the purists would claim that it affected the tone, and probably balk at the lack of conventional power transformers.
Yeah Kevin O' Connor is London Power, so ask the Reeves guys...they should know. I believe the main thing was noise from the switching but maybe you could get it to work. I haven't had a chance to check the TUT4, TUT5, or TUT6 yet for it, but am going to have to read through TUT6 soon for some power scaling info. I'm thinking about adding it to my modified Vox AC100 clone. Currently I have master volumes for the Vox style clean channel and my high gain channel, but it is kind of useless on the clean channel as it is clean all the way up. It would be better to ditch the master for the clean channel and add a power scaling knob on the front, if the circuitry will fit in the amp anyway...its pretty packed!
Of course, that didn't stop Peavey. Their Pro VB-3 300 eight EL34, four 12AX7 and one 12AT7 bass amp uses a switching PS.
300 tube watts; 37 freekin' lbs, amazing. Those Peavey guys have got it goin' on, and have been doing a phenomenal job for decades IMO.
I've been hearing from people in the know that Peavey might be buying parts of Gibson....would certainly be interesting, and they would probably make better guitars and be a better place to work!
Greg
-
Hi,
some facts from ebay.de:
Sunn 2000S: 916,00€, well far away from the 2000$ mark...
Greetings
Oli
-
This is from the "Sunn 215 cabinet" thread in DIY, moved to stop an unintentional "hijack". :wink:
Which means what in Finnish????????
Aurinko = Sun
Aurinnko = Sunn
:-D
Yes, Very clever indeed. Perhaps a new amp could be marketed with that name. What do say about that, EdBass??
I actually had a different but not altogether dissimilar idea. That project got a little side tracked due to some real estate issues, but I'm pretty close to picking up the torch again.
EdBass,
Im glad to hear that you're going foreward with the amp ideas. After looking around at a number of higher priced beauteque amps, and seeing what the going prices are for such amps, I'm sure that a nice <Sunn> 200S or such would sell.
How about going just the opposit and naming it Moon. Use the same font..with all lower case lettering, and instead of the Sunn ((0))), use a stylized 1/2 cresent moon at the end of the lettering.
Robert
EdBass,
Im glad to hear that you're going foreward with the amp ideas. After looking around at a number of higher priced beauteque amps, and seeing what the going prices are for such amps, I'm sure that a nice <Sunn> 200S or such would sell.
How about going just the opposit and naming it Moon. Use the same font..with all lower case lettering, and instead of the Sunn ((0))), use a stylized 1/2 cresent moon at the end of the lettering.
Robert
Or a series of 1/2 crescent moons (two ahead and 3 behind the "moonn" to keep it in tune with the original look.
Michael
"Moon" was my first idea, and I haven't completely ruled it out. I have another idea though, but I should probably protect it before I reveal it. Nothing is certain (I'm not exactly ready for pre-orders!), but I expect to make a couple somethings at least, if only for personal use.
Honestly, making an amp is easy. The hard part is the time and $$$ involved in legalities, regulations and marketing!
-
I know it's probably pretty early to be thinking about this side of things. But I'm a graphic designer, if you need help with a logo or anything like that let me know. This would be a really fun project.
You can e-mail me at
archradish (at) gmail (dot) com
-
Hi Ed Bass;
200s re-issue!!! If you used EI KT 90s and a ss rectifier, you could get 100 watts w/ similar sound ??? SS rectification would be less windings on the power tranny ( cheaper) I fpund the Sunns are louder and cleaner w/ ss recti, but the GZ34 has a deeper-warmer sound and if you want to grind a bit, it is the better choice. I swap those socketed diodes in & out from time to time for kix. NOS GZ34s are hard to come by. 6AN8as aren't getting more common either. use a 6SN7 octal to drive KT90s. Old Ampex B15s had a 600 ohm tap off that for studio work. Now it's a 201 S !!!! :-)
Does anybody even market a 2 X 15 these days? The bass world needs that option ALWAYS.
80 watts and a 200s cab has played any gig I have gotten in the last 15 years...especially since mic-up is common these days...2000s & 2 200s cabs slaughters my normal gig and most stages don't even have room.
God, those hi wattage Switching power supply amps sound terrible.
Man you opened a can of worms here!!! $1500 is not unreasonable ( 200s was 1000. in'69). Need rock stars to play them on tour!!!!
gavin
-
Peavey has a 2x15, but that is the only one I can think of.
-
Peavey has a 2x15, but that is the only one I can think of.
Fender and Markbass both make 2x15 cabs... the Fender 215 is basically the same cabinet they were marketing as a Sunn 215 about ten years ago.
-
Man, this thread is GREAT. I would love the prospect of some Sunn clones, especially a 2000s.
Regarding the market for a reproduction 200s: Many people see the 60w or so as too small for most situations now a days. 200-300w bass amps have definitely become the norm, and anything smaller is kind of considered impractical. True, it's nice to have the big amps with tons of headroom, however, I know loads of guitar players that only use combos: 15-40w or there about. There has been a pretty big and ongoing trend I've seen of increasing popularity of combos over the past years, and these 200-300w bass amps are just way overpowered for guys playing with guitar players who use these smaller amps. These monster bass amps are bulky, and to get into the sweet spot tone, kind of have to be cranked, at which point you've completely blown away the guitarist. The only bass amps widely available for small club gigs or playing with these lower watt combos are either lightweight SS amps, or older, lower watt bass amps (B-15, bassmans, and sunns). Therefore, I believe there would definitely be a market for a new, lower watt, all tube bass amp. Obviously that's what Ashdown's philosophy is with the Lil Bastard 30w amp, although that would probably be more useful as a practice amp. They aren't ridiculously heavy, you can get the tube sound without the high volume, and they are fairly portable. So I think a 200s repro would sell, maybe not tons, but it would have a market.
P.S.-another market, though its probably already been mentioned, is studios.
It's funny, I'm just about to construct a 2000s cab, and I was figuring on either buying old Sunn badges or coming up with a custom badge. At one point during the build planing, I was thinking me and my old man could make a small production of cabs, as I know at least one other bass player who'd be interested in a 2x15, and a guitar playing interested in either a 215 or 4/6x12 cab. Pretty simple designs, wouldn't be that hard to make a small batch of cabs. So I start putting some more thought into the custom name plate idea, as I know a place where I can have them whipped up. First idea that comes to mind: Moon ))), with either a little man on the moon, ala Little Prince, or a crescent moon face, something like this:http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/1461/070320pglogohmed8ahmeditw5.jpg
Great minds think alike I suppose, though I really like the badge Arskas came up: Aurinnko = Sunn
I still may get the Moon badges made up, just to see how they come out, that or I'll make one that says Nelsonn (O))). (Adding an N to my last name).
Anywho, I'd be really into a repro 2000s, I was talking about getting an old 2000s on Talkbass just yesterday/today. But a modern PTP Sunn would definitely get my attention. Personally, I love the 30" width head, and that would be a selling point to me. However, I understand the 24" common width, as overhanging, non-uniformed head+cab combos bug the $*#% out of me. Its the same thing with the Reeves, I think they just look better with the longer width. But I get the practicality of a smaller 2000s. Either way, loving the prospects of this thread, I'd offer any aid I could, which probably just be testing since I'm not very technically inclined.
-
I have 2000$ sitiing aside to buy your 2000s reproduction!!! let me know when its finished!!! hah... I'm really not joking though...
-
I have 2000$ sitiing aside to buy your 2000s reproduction!!! let me know when its finished!!! hah... I'm really not joking though...
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/msg/1773410795.html
have at it lol.
-
So, what is the latest EdBass?
-
Hi Ed Bass;
Does anybody even market a 2 X 15 these days? The bass world needs that option ALWAYS.
Gavin, back in the early 70's a bass player friend of mine had a Sonic I-40...which was a 40 watt version of the 200S but had a single 15" bottom loaded with a JBL D-140. He then bought a second I-40 cabinet and sold the Sonic head and bought a 200S head. My point is that perhaps two single 15 cabs might be more flexible than one 2 x 15. Then again sunn had the big 4 x 15 bass cab. Just an idea.
Rob
-
If you used EI KT 90s and a ss rectifier, you could get 100 watts w/ similar sound ??? SS rectification would be less windings on the power tranny ( cheaper) I fpund the Sunns are louder and cleaner w/ ss recti, but the GZ34 has a deeper-warmer sound and if you want to grind a bit, it is the better choice. I swap those socketed diodes in & out from time to time for kix. NOS GZ34s are hard to come by. 6AN8as aren't getting more common either. use a 6SN7 octal to drive KT90s. Old Ampex B15s had a 600 ohm tap off that for studio work. Now it's a 201 S !!!! :-)
KT90 are a little scarce nowdays, probably not the best choice for a production circuit. Ei is gone. EH is the only supplier left ASAIK. I've played with the new Tung Sol KT120, I have a quad in an amp as I type this, and so far they are holding up well. They sound pretty good also, after I get some hours on them I'll know more. I like the reissue Gold Lions, but truthfully can't tell much difference between them and the stock JJ's in my Reeves C225. I think JJ's are real workhorses in the 6550/KT88 class, great sounding, very consistant and reliable. I'm always trying the new phenom tube though, trying to reach that tonal nirvana...
I have a vintage B15N less than 3 ft from me right now. I think it's maybe the best sounding amp I've ever heard, particularly with a passive bass. The huge soundstage on the NOS 6SN7 is so rich and dynamic you can taste it but; I think a lot of the tone is in the total tube configuration, combined with the circuit itself, not to mention the cabinet. Although my B15 sounds pretty spectacular through my K140 loaded Sunn Sonic I-40 cab also.
Jess Oliver certainly got it right, that's for sure!
As I said I think that the B15 is the cream of the tonal crop, but I'm looking for the Sunn tone I love, not a hybrid.
Besides, Alessandro already did it;
http://www.alessandro-products.com/amp-basset.html
Nice amp, but then I suppose it ought to be considering it starts at $2600 and with options can cost well over $50,000 (not a typo).
So, what is the latest EdBass?
Regretfully I don't have much to report; except that the deeper I dig the higher the price seems to go.
To get a saleable amp(s), economy of scale is everything. IMO a 4 x KT88/6550 amp would be more useful for the majority of bass players than a 2 x KT88/6550 would be, but the 200ish watt tube bass amp category is pretty crowded already, both high end hand wired and PCB imports ranging from <$1000 to $3500+.
The 75-100ish watt tube bass amp category is less populated, but mostly because of the perception that you need at least 150 tube watts for a bass amp.
I've played enough gigs with a box stock 200S rig to know that with the right cabinet a 60 watt amp will fill a small to medium venue with strong clean bass without PA support. It's humorous and somewhat entertaining when you see self proclaimed "experts" posting on bass forums about how you need at least 500 or so watts to play live, but that type of perception can contribute in making a low powered bass amp a tough sell.
So... I think I would need a 60 watt and a 150 watt amp to be viable. Actually a rated 100 watts and 200 watts would be more marketable and also easily obtainable without totally bastardizing the Dynaco circuit. IMO the key is to be able to build both amps sharing as many parts as possible (that "economy of scale" thing). Also not a big stretch as the Mark III and the Mark VI are pretty much similar except for the iron and # of tubes. The key would be a universal chassis and head cabinet, 200 chassis/head cabinets are a lot less per piece than 10 of them are.
Anybody want to donate a 60's era Coliseum PA amp as a "mule"?
Of course all of this effort (and initial outlay $$$) would be a waste of time if I didn't think a target price of <$1500; as close to $1000 as possible, for a hand built amp wasn't important.
That's one of the reasons (besides the truckload of vintage Sunn gear I've accumulated :roll:) I want the vintage Sunn market to jump up to vintage Hiwatt/Marshal/Fender levels. Personally, I think Sunn amps are deserving of the same reverence tonally.
It seems to be slowly changing, but regretfully Sunn has been adopted for use by an entire genre(s) of non musicians as simply loud, inarticulate noise makers, and I believe it's caused the majority of talented and influential players and serious collectors to largely ignore them being the tone machines they are. I believe this because I regularly speak with vintage gear pros from all over at shows and showcases. When I bring up Sunn, some of them acknowledge their tone, but the majority dismiss them as "only good for that xxxxxx, or yyyy garbage."
At $2000 for a 2 tube and $3500 for a 4 tube, on paper "Sunn clone" building could start tomorrow... And end in a couple of months when nobody would actually pony up and buy one for that kind of money. :wink:
-
SHHHHHHHH! I don't want the prices to jump up! At least, not till I buy a 2000s. But you're right, they absolutely deserve to be ranked with "the best". If you could make a handwired 4xKT88/6550 2000s clone, I bet they would sell like hotcakes, regardless of what circuit they're based on. I'd regard you as a God.
I'm just as puzzled by the assumptions some people makes regarding how much power is necessary. A 300w tube amp is stupid loud, I really cannot imagine anyone wanting more than that, and in fact, even 300w is a bit overkill. People using 2000w power amps? WHAT!? Where would the ever be necessary? Festivals I suppose. But even then, 40 years ago, these lower watt rigs, 100w-200w, were holding their own fine at festivals. Woodstock, limited PA, what were guys using? Sunns and Acoustics, for a lot. Granted, the actual sound levels in the audience may have been iffy, and I'm sure the sound quality at current festivals is way superior, but what has changed to where a 2000w rig, into a PA, is now needed to do the same thing that 40 years ago 100-200w rigs were doing on their own? All I can chalk it up to is less efficient speakers, and less efficient cabinets. I've reduced the power in my Bassman 300 by disabling one pair of tubes, and I'm happier because I can drive it more, and I plan on "downsizing" to a 100-200w amp in the future, just because they can handle my needs just as well. I could probably use a 60w amp in plenty of situations, definitely for practice, small gigs, stuff where I back acoustic guitars, or for the studio (maybe not enough to justify purchasing a dedicated amp for these purposes, but point being that there's plenty of applications).
[/rant]
Anyways, I still think this is a cool idea Ed.
P.S. Oh, and I think I'm going to get a MOON))) name plate made up of me new cab. :wink:
-
I love my Solarus, but I think a Fender style tube reverb and a full tone stack could make it better for me (I need to study some circuits and figure that out!)....I would buy that, but probably not a direct clone. It is still too affordable to get an original.
-
I moved this post;
I didn't find any writings about this amp so take a look:
http://www.bass.se/2009/t90.htm (http://www.bass.se/2009/t90.htm)
...there is a low power bass amp available.
It's got a whole bunch of preamp tubes... :-D
Because it didn't have any relevance to the original thread. It’s now in “General Discussion”;
http://sunn.ampage.org/sdp/index.php/topic,5691.0.html
Looks like a nice amp, but even if it’s not they DO have Tal Wilkenfeld as an endorsee, one of my favorite people and IMO is ultra cool; even though she does makes me feel like using my basses for firewood. :wink:
Young, virtuoso, AND hot??? It just ain’t fair…
For the uninitiated, check this vid out, particularly around 1:18;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gO7FI_ogvA