Author Topic: new sunn amp day!  (Read 10536 times)

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Offline musicismath

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new sunn amp day!
« on: May 09, 2010, 12:16:46 am »




sunn sentura 1    I believe its circa 1968-70 (?)

it has two 12axy's and 2 kt88's
tremolo and delicious reverb

this is my first sunn amp.  I just got home from playing it for about 3 hours.  I love this amp to death!  I can no longer play my other amp.  This amp kicks soooo much ass!  The cleans are breath taking, and the crunch is from the God's themselves!  

here are some pictures of the amp, plus some pictures of us having fun with our other sunn's.  ENJOY.



http://www.flickr.com/photos/35331803@N06/sets/72157624021689100/



« Last Edit: May 09, 2010, 01:16:47 am by musicismath »

Offline biltmore

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Re: new sunn amp day!
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2010, 02:04:39 am »
musicismath is my bandmate, and it looks like my love of Sunn gear has finally rubbed off on the guy. He picked up a beautiful Sentura I today for a damn good price. He also got a Sunn cab with it as well. It recently had a cap job, and there's brand new JJ tubes inside: 2xKT88's, a tube rectifier, and I *think* the guy said that there's 3x12AX7's in there (which could be bad news, read below). Not sure about the preamp tubes, but will have to check it out tomorrow.

I'll hotlink a couple of pictures, but there's definitely more pics to check out on via the flickr link.





Because it has the Mid-Boost, I'm pretty sure that it's the Sentura I that's listed in the 1969 catalog:

Sentura I 40W 1xD15S 38x24x11.5 7 knobs 4 inputs midboost.

I've never seen this 2x12" cabinet before, but it looks just like the 2x12" Extension Speaker cabinet from the '67 catalog. It has the same grill cloth as the Sentura I.



Sadly, there were no JBL's inside of the cabinet, just 2 Rola Celestion G12-30's (30 watts @ 8 ohms each from the early 80's (?) and have a silver back.) I tried searching around here to see what were originally in the Extension Speaker cabs, but I can't find any information in the catalogs, brochures, museum, or the forum. The cabinet also has 2 inputs on the back, which I have a hard time believing are original:



The original owner had only played the amp for a couple of hours after having it serviced, and it sounds like he never used it that much. Luckily that was the case, as the 2 x 8 ohm speakers in the cab are connected to the 2 outputs separately, which means he was connected to both the 8 ohm and 4 ohm outputs on the Sunn, which drop down to a 4 ohm load when run together. Obviously there was some ohm mismatch action going on, and I know that can be bad. We quickly noticed something was amiss when we turned up the amp to 7 and the speakers started tripping out. We then turned the amp off and looked inside of the cabinet to see what speakers were in there, as I knew there just couldn't be 2 x 4 ohm Sunn speakers in there. [ We now have the speakers hooked up in parallel for a 4 ohm load now, and everything seems peachy ... aside from the speakers sounding a lot like Greenbacks :| ]

............ And this is where he could use your help loudthud, EdBass, Mel, and anybody else.

-- I could be mistaken, but didn't all of the Sentura I's have EL-34s? I know the '67 and '68 models used EL-34's. This amp has 2xKT88's, and am wondering if it's been modded somehow, or if the amp can be safely biased and set for KT88s? I just came across a post by Conrad, and he had this to say about his '69 Sentura I: "I own a Sunn Setura that was built in 1969.  It is basically a 100S with some modifications on the front end.  One of the nice touches of this amp is the tremendous depth of the vibrato fuction."

http://sunn.ampage.org/sdp/index.php/topic,632.0.html

Is it possible that there was a Sentura I model that had originally shipped with KT88's?

-- The amp seems to break up pretty early on, just around 3 on the Volume. Is that a certain characteristic of the Sentura I? I've never played a Sunn amp before that broke up that early. It has 3 preamp tubes, and I'm wondering if it's supposed to get a little nasty ... or, maybe the original owner had put 3x12AX7's in there, which the schematics call for a 12AX7, 12AU7, and 7199. I found that information about the preamp tubes in a thread, and not sure if this schematic corroborates that or not:

http://www.richbriere.com/images/Sunn%20Sentura%201%20schematic.gif

I can only hope that the 7199 slot has not been modded, and that there's a 7199 seated in there.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 09:21:59 am by biltmore »

Offline HRobert

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Re: new sunn amp day!
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2010, 05:27:00 pm »

(Quote) I've never seen this 2x12" cabinet before, but it looks just like the 2x12" Extension Speaker cabinet from the '67 catalog. It has the same grill cloth as the Sentura I.
The Sentura I with the mid-boost switch is from 1969.  The 67 and 68's didn't have the mid-boost.  Also, the extention cabs pictured in the 1967 catalog both have JBL 15" speakers...not 12's.  The short cab pictured in the catalog is the Sentura II cab with 2 JBL D-130's and the taller cab is, I believe, either a 200S bass cab or the Sonic II guitar cab with the D130's.

I'm not sure when the 2x12 cab was built...but it wasn't in 67.

Rob

Offline musicismath

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Re: new sunn amp day!
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2010, 11:09:55 pm »
hey Rob, thanks for the info.  I'm still trying to find out more info on this amp.  I've been playing it pretty much non stop, and I cannot get over how amazing it sounds.

I am truly blown away by sunn amps!  They are quickly becoming my favorite sound.


Offline HRobert

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Re: new sunn amp day!
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2010, 07:13:07 am »
hey Rob, thanks for the info.  I'm still trying to find out more info on this amp.  I've been playing it pretty much non stop, and I cannot get over how amazing it sounds.

I am truly blown away by sunn amps!  They are quickly becoming my favorite sound.



Yea, Sunn amps are really great.  The Sentura I is a 40 watt RMS amp.  With regard to the speaker cab; I'm not sure about the 69 model, but the 67 and 68 models came with one of the short cabs - 24w x 36h x 11.5d...like shown in the 67 catalog...except with one JBL D-130 speaker.   

I now have a 67 Sentura II.  This is my second 67 Sentura II as I had to sell my first one in 1981 because I was desperate for money.  I restored the head and have a pair of the 67 style 2 x 15" bottoms that I built myself.  The amp is just like my original that I had to sell...except the original had the diagonal grill cloth like your Sentura I. I couldn't find any decent affordable D-130's, so I have 4 JBL K-130's for speakers. Look at the DIY section of the discussion page and look for my posts ; rebuilding a 67 Sentura II to see my amp.

Rob

Offline loudthud

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Re: new sunn amp day!
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2010, 10:00:21 am »
This thread should answer your impedance questions.

http://sunn.ampage.org/sdp/index.php/topic,4844.0.html

Offline biltmore

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Re: new sunn amp day!
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2010, 11:42:09 am »
This thread should answer your impedance questions.

http://sunn.ampage.org/sdp/index.php/topic,4844.0.html

I ended up searching for that thread and found it yesterday morning before leaving to the studio. It certainly helped me out. The cabinet is currently wired in parallel, running at 4 ohms. It sounded great at the studio yesterday, but the speakers will definitely need to be replaced sometime in the near future. They're awfully Greenback-ish. I'm thinking that the Weber Neomags would be a good replacement for those Celestions.

Offline biltmore

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Re: new sunn amp day!
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2010, 02:16:00 pm »
I've got some chassis shots, as well as a list of the tubes that are in there.

I'm not sure if the Sentura I's were set up to get a little angry starting at 3 on the volume, but I've never heard a Sunn break up this early before. It's not full on distortion mind you, but more of an AC30-like breakup. It sounds freaking awesome, but I was under the assumption that all these old Sunn's never got that kind of saturation / breakup until you cranked the ever loving crap out of them. Do you think it might be the replacement of the 12AU7 with a 12AU7A and the 7199 with a 6AN8 that's causing the early breakup?

We'd like to get more headroom out of this amp, if it's possible. I'm assuming that there has been a mod done to it to change the 7199 to a 6AN8, and I have no idea why a 6AN8 was chosen because isn't a 6U8 the proper replacement for the 7199 now? I'm also assuming that there's been a mod for it to accept KT88's as well, since it's technically an EL34 amp.

(Photobucket seems to be having some issues at the moment, so come back in a bit ... and hopefully these pictures will work then)

----



























« Last Edit: May 17, 2010, 03:11:24 pm by biltmore »

Offline biltmore

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Re: new sunn amp day!
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2010, 03:16:56 pm »
A good friend just let me know about a couple issues, and I'm sure he knows what he's talking about since he builds amps ... but I'd love to run it across you guys:

A few things standout:
 - Yay, replaced electrolytics! ... except on the PCB. The two big guys and the four blue ones are forty years old. They will not be in their best shape!
 - DEATH CAP! The capacitor from the switch to the chassis is bad. Cut it out. (bottom left corner of this pic http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h179/dead_red_eyes/Sentura%20I/DSCN3761.jpg)
 - Shoddy 3 prong install. The previous owner has added a 3 prong power lead, but soldered the earth lead to the chassis. Lame. It should be soldered to a lug then bolted to the chassis with a locking washer between it and the nut. Also, the earth lead should be longer than the live and neutral leads so that if the power cord gets ripped out, it will cop the strain last and hopefully remain connected, preventing the chassis from going live.
 - Unbalanced high voltage capacitor stack. The two absurdly large blue sprague caps are in series to safely handle the voltage present at the first B+ node. However, it is standard practice to put a large value resistor across each of these to ensure the voltage seen by each is exactly half of the entire voltage present. Otherwise one can get a voltage above its max rating and meet an early death. A 220K/270K/330K 1W (or higher) resistor from the + to the - of each of those two big caps will act as a voltage divider and perform the aforementioned task. What I'm describing can be seen in the power supply for the hiwatt DR103 - http://hiwatt.org/Schematics/DR_100wPS.gif

Offline loudthud

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Re: new sunn amp day!
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2010, 03:32:48 pm »
It's interesting that this amp looks like it has 60W transformers and never had the smaller 40W ones. Look inside the chassis at the screws that hold the output transformer. (The end near the input jacks.) See the holes that are about 1/4 inch diagonally towards the center of the transformer? Those are the holes for the 40W units. I don't see any marks that indicate those holes were ever used. What are the numbers on the transformers?

The 12AX7 should be the tube closest to the input jacks. It controls the gain of the amp. The 12AU7 is next to it but it only affects the reverb. The best diagnostic is to measure the power output. That will tell you if everthing is operating as it should. This amp has had a cap job. There could be a problem with the 6AN8 circuit that would reduce headroom. The power out test will reveal that. Note: a 7199 will not work unless the amp is re-wired.

Here's another thread with info on how to tell the difference between 40W and 60W amps.

http://sunn.ampage.org/sdp/index.php/topic,4895.0.html
« Last Edit: May 17, 2010, 04:32:13 pm by loudthud »

Offline biltmore

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Re: new sunn amp day!
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2010, 05:02:16 pm »
(Photobucket is being really really strange right now, so I'm going to also attach the photos to my post. Sorry!)
-----

About the 60W transformers, that still has me in a very confused state. I don't get how a stock Sentura I is loaded with the Sentura II's power section. Here's the numbers for both transformers. There's a bit of wear on them, so here's my best guess along with some pictures:




28-2560
352034



28-1360
608432

And here's some shots of the top of the chassis:







I'll be sure to measure the transformers when I get to the studio tomorrow, but I'm thinking that since there's a 6AN8 in there it's got to either be stock ... or whoever was building the amp confused the Sentura I with the Sentura II? After all, the 7199 was for the 40W amps, and the 6AN8 is for the 60W ... according to the post that you linked me to.

Offline foxfire

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Re: new sunn amp day!
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2010, 05:44:15 pm »
is it just me or are the 12au7 and 6an8 reversed...

Offline biltmore

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Re: new sunn amp day!
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2010, 05:50:03 pm »
Crap, they are reversed foxfire!!! My bad.

I also just noticed that the getter on the 12AU7A seems to be all but worn out. I can't imagine that's a good thing.

Offline foxfire

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Re: new sunn amp day!
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2010, 07:24:11 pm »
it does look as though the tube has been in there for a while but if the reverb is still working/strong then it doesn't need to be on the top of the "to do" list...