BETA LEAD 410 Questions

[mattz]

Hi all!

I am a new member and this is my first post here, so be gentle!

I am interested in acquiring a Beta Lead 410 combo that's listed on craigslist in my area right now... The owner has the combo listed at $550, but has agreed to let me have at it for $400 since I'd be driving 2 hours (4 hours round trip) to try out and possibly buy the amp. So, I'm looking for something LOUD and pretty versatile... My research has led me to either the Beta Lead SS or the Concert Lead SS. Is this a good deal for the Beta Lead 410 combo? Also, with the Beta Lead SS rated at 4 OHMS and the 4 10s hardwired at 4 ohms in parallel (correct me if I'm wrong), would it be possible to run the full combo and another/separate cabinet at the same time? I have a Sunn 412L (rated at 8 OHMS) that I'd like to utilize with this set up, but I'm not sure if it will work correctly? The last thing I wanna do is blow up this combo! Any/all advice/knowledge is most certainly welcome!

Thank You!
-M

[Isaac]

"with the Beta Lead SS rated at 4 OHMS and the 4 10s hardwired at 4 ohms in parallel (correct me if I'm wrong), would it be possible to run the full combo and another/separate cabinet at the same time?"

I wouldn't.

[mattz]

Thanks for your reply! So, is it generally unsafe to run an additional cab with this combo? Is it possible at all?

[EdBass]

If you just plug in the additional 412L you will be under the minimum recommended impedance (into the "meltdown" rage for the Beta), AND twice the power going to the 412L would be going to the 10's.
To each their own, but as Isaac says; "I wouldn't".

If you can cobble together a wiring scheme that will work depends on what the impedance of the actual drivers in the cabinets are.
Most 4 driver cabinets are wired series/parallel, and if that's the case the Beta has 4 ohm drivers and the 412L has 8 ohm drivers. If you are correct that the 4 10's are paralleled, they are 16 ohm drivers.
Regardless, you would probably have to replace the drivers in one of the cabs to make it work properly. Two 8 ohm cabs would be what you are shooting for.

In a 4 driver configuration you have three choices;

The same impedance as the individual drivers, series/parallel.
or
25% of the impedance of the individual drivers, parallel.
or
4 times the impedance of the individual drivers, series.

By process of elimination the only practical solution is to get 8 ohm drivers for the Beta. UNLESS... the Beta in question already has 8 ohm drivers; which I mention because you haven't actually seen the one you are considering, and more importantly because my Beta lead 410 combo had 8 ohm drivers in it from the factory, so it's a possibility.

http://sunnforum.ampage.org/index.php/topic,5252.msg20859.html#msg20859

[mattz]

Wow EdBass! Thanks for the in depth reply! Your breakdown helped make things a little more clear.

Now my questions are:

1. If I open up the cab and look at the drivers, how can I determine the hard wiring setup of the cabinet?

2. What are the applications or benefits of wiring the cabinets one way or the other? I've heard of running cabs in series or parallel, but I'm not quite sure what each means? Is series when you daisy chain cabs? I'm not sure...

I know these are pretty basic inquiries, I just need things spelled out for me sometimes hehe. Thank you!

[EdBass]

Start here, and then Google "speaker wiring" for more info.

http://www.eminence.com/support/wiring-diagrams/

You'll be an impedance whiz before you know it!

[mattz]

Ok, so after a little more research, I've come to the conclusion that the choice of wiring setup is ultimately to achieve a desired impedance for a cabinet? I've read some accounts of tonal differences between series and parallel, but have found no definitive answers on the subject... Is this your opinion EdBass?

My next question is, how can one tell if a cabinet is wired stereo or mono? What is the purpose of the two input jacks on the back on my 412L?

Again, I apologize for my naivety...

[EdBass]

The important thing is getting the impedance squared away, getting a load that the amp is "comfortable" with driving while balancing the output among the drivers so that you don't have a big difference in output between them.
IMO parallel is preferable to series because the signal doesn't have to rely on passing through another driver's voice coil in order to get to other drivers. The voice coil of a driver is the weakest link in the signal chain, and a failure in one driver can take out the rest of the drivers in the chain if the failure opens the voice coil in the blown driver.
Of course it isn't always possible to avoid series wiring schemes, but I personally try to stay as parallel as possible.
I'm not familiar with using series vs. parallel as a tonal option.

I'm also not familiar with the 412L cab specifically, but I'd imagine that the two jacks in back are paralleled to facilitate "daisy chaining" to another cab. You can tell by looking at the wiring between the jacks; paralleled jacks will be wired sleeve to sleeve and tip to tip with only one set of wires running from the jack plate to the drivers themselves. In the (unlikely) event that each jack is wired independently to the drivers, you will need to trace them to see what is actually going on in there.

[loudthud]

Series speaker wiring should be avoided unless the speakers are the same and in the same or identical cabinets. There can be minor tonal differences but with solid state amps, it's much more important to get the total load correct. Two 8 ohm cabinets is what the Beta amps want to see.

[mattz]

Thanks for your replies! It's all coming together now!

So, daisy chaining is basically just adding another cabinet to a setup without going directly from the amp itself..? For example, the Beta Lead amp (100 watts @ 4 ohms) connected to one 8 ohm cabinet, and then daisy chained from said cabinet to an additional 8 ohm cabinet...would give you the same performance/load as the Beta Lead connected directly to both cabinets from both jacks on the Beta Lead (no daisy chain)?

Thanks much!

[EdBass]

Thanks for your replies! It's all coming together now!

So, daisy chaining is basically just adding another cabinet to a setup without going directly from the amp itself..? For example, the Beta Lead amp (100 watts @ 4 ohms) connected to one 8 ohm cabinet, and then daisy chained from said cabinet to an additional 8 ohm cabinet...would give you the same performance/load as the Beta Lead connected directly to both cabinets from both jacks on the Beta Lead (no daisy chain)?

Thanks much!

Yes, that is Daisy Chaining. It would be the same if the original cabinet has paralleled jacks.
Going from amp to each cab is a better solution electronically, "Daisy Chaining" is less efficient, and IMO should be avoided if possible. The practical uses for an audio daisy chain is when you are stringing speaker cabs over a distance, for example stage monitors or mono FOH on opposite sides of a stage, or if maybe you run out of output jacks in an MI amp.

I think it's mostly one of those slang buzzwords/phrases that people who aren't hip to the actual physics involved often overuse, kind of like "running at 2". There are legitimate reasons to daisy chain or run a transistor amp output at 2 ohms, but IMO those events should be the exception rather than the rule.

Even if it does sound "hip" to say them...

[mattz]

EdBass! Thanks so much! You basically confirmed my thinking about daisy chaining! I've got a pretty good handle on speaker wiring and impedance loads thanks to your help!

So now I just need to decide whether or not to buy the Beta Lead 410 combo in question... The guy has it listed at $550 in like new condition; according to him it was only played on a handful of times at church events by the original owner... he is the second owner and has barely played on it, as he says... He already came down to $400 on the price, since I would be driving 2 hours out of my way just to check out the combo... I asked him what his bottom line is, and he said $300... Seems like a very nice guy, I just need to get out there and try this thing out! EdBass, what was your experience with your Beta Lead 410 combo? I'm looking for volume first of all... Amp distortion is a plus, but I can always add pedals... Just want some power!

Let me know what you think!
Thanks!

[EdBass]

Well, let me start by saying that I’m a tube guy AND a bass player, so probably not your best choice for an opinion about an open back transistor guitar combo. Betas are very versatile, and with the proper Beta foot switch can cover a whole bunch of tonal ground in a gig scenario. As with most Sunns, they seem to be very loud for their rated output. 
I haven't checked Beta prices recently, but off the top of my head $300 sounds like a deal on a nice Beta Lead 410; but the foot switch is a proprietary design and IMO essential to the amps value as a gigging piece.
Hopefully the amp comes with the foot switch. I think there are some aftermarket options available, but again this is really out of my "sweet spot" in the Sunn world.

Overall, I think it depends on what YOU think of it when you play it. A 4 hour road trip just to see if you like seems kind of extreme, but I'd do it if it were me.
One thing is for sure; they aren't making any more Sunn Betas, so this may be a chance you won't get again!

[mattz]

Awesome, thanks for your insight! I should be going to check out the combo in the next week or so... It does NOT come with the original foot switch, so I might be on the hunt for one if any of you see one up for grabs! Let me know!

THANKS!