The sunn Forum
Sunn Musical Equipment => Bands Using SUNN => Topic started by: jerryjg on December 20, 2007, 05:16:17 pm
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Please add to this. Make it a fun thread.THis is Duanne Allman playing waht could well be the head i have- a Sunn S100. Youll see it in the background. It appears to be the same cord connected to his guitar. Maybe someone with a better photo can anlyze this cause i would love to know for certain. Then again it could be the bass players rig. Im inclined to believe its Duane Allmans amp. It looks like its going thru a Kuston Casino 4X12 cab., although I dont know if the Casino line had been introduced as of that point in time.;
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n134/dickdog1/DuaneAllman.jpg?t=1198195795
Peter Townshend with two Sunn S100 amps through 2X15 Sunn cabinets;
http://www.thewho.net/whotabs/images/67_sunn100s-gibsonlp.jpg
EDIT: Moderater..please move this post to "bands".I just discovered that forum. thanks
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The grill cloth on that cabinet looks to me like part of the Orion series. I'll have to dig up my 1969 catalog to get a picture.
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http://www.youtube.com/v/S48Nr3M2aEs&rel=1
sorry it's not a pic. but my fav video.
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could that cab in the first picture be an early ampeg?
i have never seen any pictures of the orion series.
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Felix Pappalardi
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Noel Redding
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You want Orion or Aquirius Sunn amps? How about a little Randy Holden! (BlueCheer/PopulationII)
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Look at this one....the 3rd one is from Woodstock, maybe its flea :-D as a kid?
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anyone have a pic of Kenny Olson (Kid Rock) playing a model T?
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anyone have a pic of Kenny Olson (Kid Rock) playing a model T?
I wanna see the one of Hendrix playing a model T!!!
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i would lov to see that JIMI pic also-dont think it exists...i got shots of him playin Sunns but not Model T-was it created before he done gone?
the kenny olsen shot(sunn poster) comes up on ebay once in awhile. its a Fender ad for their Model T and KO on stage w/ whoever that white boy rapper pretender is that he werked fer...
s
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anyone have a pic of Kenny Olson (Kid Rock) playing a model T?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Kenny-Olson-of-Kid-Rock-SUNN-Amp-STAND-BACK-AD_W0QQitemZ220020681497QQihZ012QQcategoryZ10171QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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Felix Pappalardi and his famous Sunn Stacks!!!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/fatlizzard/Copyoffelix-stack300x200.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/fatlizzard/Copyoffelix.jpg)
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(http://bubblepuppy.com/Pix/BP2.jpg)
Anyone remember Bubble Puppy? Anyone remember coil cords!!
Can't tell the models, but it is definitely a Sunn and Kustom mix.
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Brownsville Station was a painfully loud band out of Michigan. They played at the Paramont Theater in Portland a couple of times when I worked there sometime around '72 to '74. I hesitate to copy pictures and post them here due to Copyright restrictions but checkout their unofficial website. You can clearly see the bass player using a Coliseum Bass and Coliseum Slave but you can't get a good look at what the guitar player is using.
The band brought their own drum riser and had two 4x8 sheets of plywood that were full of eyebolts. The position of every drum and cymbal stand was carefully marked and at least three bungie cords used to hold things in place. At the end of almost every song, the guitar and bass players would jump up on the corners of the drum riser, grind on the last cord, let it feed back for a second, then jump high in the air and cut the sound off as they hit the stage. Their biggest hit was "Smokin in the Boy's Room".
http://bs.angeltowns.com/index.html
Best shots of Sunn gear:
http://bs.angeltowns.com/Donkirshner.html
http://bs.angeltowns.com/inconcert.html
http://bs.angeltowns.com/midnitespecial.html
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Not just famous but infamous: the PA cabs at Altamont were all Sunns.
(http://www.earthguideforaliens.com/blogimages/mickonstagealtamont.jpg)
(http://www.britannica.com/psychedelic/images/opsyroc082p1.jpg)
(http://bp1.blogger.com/_eMfw8PboF5U/RpErPOTmcMI/AAAAAAAAA3w/NsRyXsidIXM/s1600/14_hells_angels-12-6-1969-altamont063.jpg)
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Entwhistle;
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/fatlizzard/entwhistle3.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/fatlizzard/entwhistle2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/fatlizzard/entwhistle.jpg)
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Townshend;
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/fatlizzard/townshend4.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/fatlizzard/townshend3.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/fatlizzard/townshend2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/fatlizzard/townshend.jpg)
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SUNN(O))) ?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/fatlizzard/sunno.jpg)
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SUNN(O))) ?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/fatlizzard/sunno.jpg)
Kinda looks like a booth at a flea market. No rhyme or reason, just a discombobulated pile of ratty old gear. :-D
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Kinda looks like a booth at a flea market. No rhyme or reason, just a discombobulated pile of ratty old gear. :-D
Yeah but wot a Beauteous sound they gett
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Well, I'm not famous, but I'm better known than nobody at all!
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/anzyk/DWB_FF_0108_11.jpg)
See the second generation Model T atop the Fender-era Model 410H. Well, part of them, anyway.
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How about a video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfDE-ZvfOwU
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it's great how townsend has those heads just sitting there on a chair.
not so sure that that is the band sunn's set up. there are very few sunn cabinets. not to mention that they would never bring themselves to play through kustom cabinets and sunn solid state heads. plus, they have no drummer in the band. and that isn't the drum set that boris was using when boris was on tour with sunn in the u.s.
just saying. i could be completely wrong.
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not so sure that that is the band sunn's set up. there are very few sunn cabinets. not to mention that they would never bring themselves to play through kustom cabinets and sunn solid state heads. plus, they have no drummer in the band. and that isn't the drum set that boris was using when boris was on tour with sunn in the u.s.
i gott lotts a shotts of Sunn on stage-never seen that one-not sure that is their stage set-awful lot of model ts tho-if it is them thats probably the opening bands drumset.
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wow, i would to hear all those sunn's going. i've seen sunn, but wow, that looks insane.
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(http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n134/dickdog1/a238_1.jpg?t=1200639674)
Chris Squier. I ran across this this evening.
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on closer inspection, you can see a model T with the chassis painted white. i remeber seeing one like that when i saw sunn. if it is them i am very surprised to see those kustom cabinets and solid state amps.
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on closer inspection, you can see a model T with the chassis painted white.
No, you might. Mind pointing this out?
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oh joe! almost dead center. right above the cymbal bag that is leaning on the cab. i guess it's not the "chassis" but the "body" of the amp. what is the "body" known as? maybe my incorrect part name description threw you off. :mrgreen:
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Hi there,it looks to me like a Model T with the tolex taken off the wooden frame.I think it's just bare plywood,not painted white,but I could be wrong,Mel.
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oh joe! almost dead center. right above the cymbal bag that is leaning on the cab. i guess it's not the "chassis" but the "body" of the amp. what is the "body" known as? maybe my incorrect part name description threw you off. :mrgreen:
Yep, I was looking for a white chassis.
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that's soma's white head. it's a red knobber. it's the one i think he's had the longest, at least from pics it seems like. i love it's albino look.
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i am 99% positive that the big amp collection is NOT Sunn 0))). they actually run through a mixture of sunn, marshall, ampeg, and even orange cabs. ive seen them use orange heads and ampeg heads as well. here are a couple images of their incredibly impressive backline. seeing this band is a total body experience. you actually FEEL the music. one of the pics has a clear picture of the white model t you all are speaking of.
(http://blogs.walkerart.org/offcenter/wp-content/uploads/2006/03/1097-1.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Sunn2.jpg/800px-Sunn2.jpg)
(http://www.blogsandiego.com/images/sunn%20013.jpg)
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you know the band is called SUNN, and not "SUNN O)))" right?
a friend of mine in the band meatjack (r.i.p.) and his solo venture darsombra has a first gen model T that someone painted all red. that looks neato too.
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It still looks like they just pile up anything they can get their hands on... :roll:
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you know the band is called SUNN, and not right?
a friend of mine in the band meatjack (r.i.p.) and his solo venture darsombra has a first gen model T that someone painted all red. that looks neato too.
Hmm... isn't "SUNN O)))" pronounced as "sun"?
Is this not the group we are disgust... uh, sorry... discussing?
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=242281886
But seriously... once they can dry off from their showers and get their instruments in tune... this group might be able to actually play something. After all, they have released a lot of CDs just based on their attempts to get in tune!!
Color... Well, I have seen too many gurus argue over either the color or what the stuff is made out of that they paint their guitars with... as to which provides the best tone to a solid body guitar...
Heck, I'll even concede that the color of the chassis will have a "sub-tile" effect on the tone. Especially for a tube amp. Yep. yep. yep...
(After all, I could make a killing selling Krylon... paint the chassis... the case, the tubes, the transistors... Oh I know - the cable... protection from the fog... and if all of them just start sniffing the Krylon... :evil: )
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yes, it is pronounced "sun". that's why i can't understand why anyone would type the o)))'s. they are silent.
in my never ending quest for sunn gear, i was in a music shop in state college, pa. asking if the guy had any sunn gear. the guy said "nope. but i wish i did. the prices of those things have gone through the roof ever since that band sun-oh has come on the scene". i chuckled and walked away. then i went in to another shop and bought a sun-oh concert lead and 4x12L cabinet.
and joe, yes, i think the band SUNN is extremely over rated and can't understand the hype about them at all. i let my step son-oh plug in all my sunn gear, tune down, close his eyes, and play guitar with his feet. i record it and sell the recordings on ebay as sunno))) bootlegged live shows.
eh, maybe i'm just jealous because i didn't think to do what they do first.
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in the weary words of bobby d "...dont criticize what you dont understand".
and matters of taste are indisputable.
i love the band and the music they make-have talked w/ the the two main members-have heard their earlier music,(they c a n play...)
but drone music is not yer every day stuff and if you want to learn what it is-listen to some Lamonte Young and Pandit Pran Nath, etc. Drone is very old and playing it in this ADD modern world doesnt sit well w/ a lot of people.
maybe you will be enlightened
maybe nott
stan
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in the weary words of bobby d "...dont criticize what you dont understand".
and matters of taste are indisputable.
i love the band and the music they make-have talked w/ the the two main members-have heard their earlier music,(they c a n play...)
but drone music is not yer every day stuff and if you want to learn what it is-listen to some Lamonte Young and Pandit Pran Nath, etc. Drone is very old and playing it in this ADD modern world doesnt sit well w/ a lot of people.
maybe you will be enlightened
maybe nott
stan
Let me make sure I've got this right; People actually pay to listen to one note for 3+ minutes?
Well, if so, my hat's off to them, this is the best marketing scam since pyramid schemes were popular in the 80's.
When I think of all that time I wasted learning to actually play a bass guitar... I could have just plugged in a bass, cranked up the amp, knocked it off of it's stand and recorded it :roll:.
To each their own for sure, but as far as "enlightened"? Well I'm not sure about that, but I guess I can see the attraction for a beginning player. Everyone who plays knows the type; someone who wants to call themselves a "musician" without taking the time it takes to learn to actually play an instrument.
Not that there's anything wrong with that, almost every real musician started out as a "wanna be".
This phenomenon probably also goes a long way towards explaining the popularity of "Guitar Hero" :-D.
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"Let me make sure I've got this right; People actually pay to listen to one note for 3+ minutes?
Well, if so, my hat's off to them, this is the best marketing scam since pyramid schemes were popular in the 80's"
exactly! that is why i am maybe a wee bit jealous. i could do that stuff all day. i will give them credit though. they pull off live what they have recorded. so, it isn't just "o.k., play whatever for 20 minutes and i'll keep the tapes rolling".
and yes, those two are very talented guitar players. that's why it is sad that they waste their time doing this. but at the same time, they probably make more money with the band SUNN than any of the good bands they were a part of. such as engine kid, khanate, burning witch and the ever so amazing goatsnake. all the bandwagon jumping "hip" kids LOVE SUNN. ask them about any of the other bands that i have mentioned. chances are they have never heard of them. that's what is so brilliant. they sell tons of records, all the while laughing their way to the bank and in the face of hipsters.
not to mention that stephen o'malley (or soma as the cool kids call him) threw a stage monitor, destroying it, when they played emissions in 06. as well as stole several bottles of not so cheap wine from the backstage area. wow, i'm impressed.
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in the weary words of bobby d "...dont criticize what you dont understand".
I don't know who your weary "bobby d" friend is, but his statement is logically meaningless - it totally discounts the possibility of criticism from an "understanding person".
Criticism is a good thing (despite the irrational belief of the politically correct movement). Criticism is essentially why most of us no longer live in caves.
and matters of taste are indisputable.
Hogwash. Matters of taste are disputed all the time. That's practically the entire job description of a "critic". Besides...
maybe you will be enlightened
maybe nott
Excuse me... but didn't you just dispute my taste as "maybe" not as good as yours if I don't come around to your point of view?
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Let me make sure I've got this right; People actually pay to listen to one note for 3+ minutes?
In your honor... I have written a song I call "A Tribute to F#".
Only problem is the vocals... seems I can't find a singer that can hold "OHM" for 23 minutes 49 seconds. :-D
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"and yes, those two are very talented guitar players. that's why it is sad that they waste their time doing this. but at the same time, they probably make more money with the band SUNN than any of the good bands they were a part of."
this mentality is whats wrong with music today. not what they are doing. who is to say that they are wasting their time? they obviously are not because they have found huge success doing what they do. you not liking it doesnt make it a waste of time. by saying that, you are spitting in the face of an entire genre. drone music isnt necessarily about who can play their instrument the most technically sound. its about having the capability to create an atmosphere through sound that will captivate your listeners. it is the same with any instrumental music. being able to convey an emotion using only instruments and no words isnt necessarily the easiest thing to do. (And yes i know they have vocals on some of their stuff, but for the most part it is instrumental, i think you get my point.) i listen to drone while im working on projects on the computer, fixing my bike, or doing some sort of activity that just requires some sort of musical ambience, but nothing that is going to distract me from what i am doing. i find it pretty disrespectful to them saying that they are doing this strictly to make money.
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"and yes, those two are very talented guitar players. that's why it is sad that they waste their time doing this. but at the same time, they probably make more money with the band SUNN than any of the good bands they were a part of."
this mentality is whats wrong with music today. not what they are doing. who is to say that they are wasting their time? they obviously are not because they have found huge success doing what they do. you not liking it doesnt make it a waste of time. by saying that, you are spitting in the face of an entire genre. drone music isnt necessarily about who can play their instrument the most technically sound. its about having the capability to create an atmosphere through sound that will captivate your listeners. it is the same with any instrumental music. being able to convey an emotion using only instruments and no words isnt necessarily the easiest thing to do. (And yes i know they have vocals on some of their stuff, but for the most part it is instrumental, i think you get my point.) i listen to drone while im working on projects on the computer, fixing my bike, or doing some sort of activity that just requires some sort of musical ambience, but nothing that is going to distract me from what i am doing. i find it pretty disrespectful to them saying that they are doing this strictly to make money.
I can bash around the silverware in my kitchen drawer. I can make a CD out of it.
If I can find an old radio set, I can make a CD out of the white noise between stations, maybe on one of the shortwave stations.
I can call it a "Random" genre or come up with a few nouns used as adjectives in front of other nouns used as adjectives. I can find some people that will like it. I can call it music. I can claim it is the ultimate expression any human being can find - and that's why I make it.
Oh no, not for the money!! But I will never refuse a check and I will laugh myself silly all the way to the bank.
You are correct in pointing out that it is a mentality thing.
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I love drone, and quite a few drone related musics. Drone is no less valid than anything played on a didgeridoo.
I find it to be an expressive and meaningful art form, and because people like me exist, it is valid as an art form.
I mean hey, I listen to a lot of music that pisses a lot of people off; Philip Glass, Merzbow; my roommate refuses to listen to Radiohead because they're "too chill", and this girl I used to know hated Tokyo Jihen because she "wasn't into the little Japanese girl thing".
In short, fine, you don't like it, fine, you think it's "too easy" to play, but don't insult it, because in doing so you are insulting your peers on this board, and your peers as musicians in general.
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In short, fine, you don't like it, fine, you think it's "too easy" to play, but don't insult it, because in doing so you are insulting your peers on this board, and your peers as musicians in general.
Illogical - conclusion cannot be derived from the premise.
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JoeArthur, are you an english major,
or just really smart at a lot of things.
you seem to know music, tech, economics and language! good on ya!
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i never said that i'm sure the only reason they continue with the band is because they make so much money.
i said that they probably make MORE money with the band "sunn" than any of the other bands thay have been a part of. and that to me is sad. i like the other bands better. i do not care for "sunn". you may. fantastic. if you want to listen to them, more power to you. i will choose not to. perhaps i don't "get it". what ever "get" is. i respect that they can pull off the recordings in a live setting. absolutely. that may even be harder that actually playing typical types of songs.
do i discredit the entire genre by disliking them? no. that is a pretty funny statement. do i then in turn look down at my peers on this board because i dislike them and say so? what? that is rediculous. that is not only funny but so stupid.
do you like every band ever? i mean ever. have you ever turned off the radio when a song by a band that you don't care for comes on? probably. have you ever then said to someone "man, that band is terrible. i can't believe some of the crap they actually play on the radio." probably. do you have the right to think and say that? yes. do i have the right to say i don't understand what all the hype is about the band? yes. do i then have the right to say to people that i don't like them. you bet your sweet ass.
and one last thing. would i ever tell them to their face that i didn't like them? yes. i have. i actually told greg anderson that i was a huge fan of his former band goatsnake and didn't care for sunn that much. and i will say he was a true professional in that he appreciated my OPINION and HONESTY without trying to, and i qoute, "be all up on him trying to suck his dick".
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just something i ran accross on another forum i like to frequent. hmmm, interesting...... too bad this isn't true about other very cool sites.
"thegearpage.net
All of my posts were deleted and all of the responses to my posts were also deleted. Too many people are incapable of being okay with disagreeing with someone and talking it out. I guess I should have reported it to a moderator but that's not my s t y l e. If it's a community of musicians then disagreements need to be open, community discussions. That's one great thing about this place is that you let everything fly and nobody gets hurt, the page doesn't crash and burn and in a day or two everyone moves on but people were allowed to say what they wanted to. I hate boards that are over moderated."
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While I admit to being appreciative of the bands ability to sell the sonic equivalent of snake oil, I would think if the band Sunn made any real money, the very real legal dept. at FMI would end up with it.
Their name is about as blatant a copyright infringement as I’ve seen.
If you think that FMI doesn’t purse its copy rights; ask G&L about it.
I suspect that in terms of actual money, they don’t generate enough of it for them to waste litigation on.
Also, while I will vehemently defend the bands right to record and sell it, I still find it hard to believe that anyone wastes money on this aural miasma.
Again, I think I can see the appeal for a beginning player to try to emulate this..."art form", but I would suspect that psychologically it must mainly appeal to post pubescent males as an expression of their inherent apostasy.
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Again, I think I can see the appeal for a beginning player to try to emulate this..."art form", but I would suspect that psychologically it must mainly appeal to post pubescent males as an expression of their inherent apostasy.
Aw man... Those thoughts are just simply... just so... so...
depressing.
EDIT: I can't believe you actually said "art form".
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I dunno....I have sat with my 17 year old son and listened to Jimi, Stevie, Al, Wes, Jango, John, Carlos, Jeff and many, many other of the greats of yesterday and today. And I have sat and listened (or did a darn good job of faking it) to some of the stuff he and his friends listen to, I don't even know the names....
He does not deny the greatness of the (my) greats...but he likes the other stuff too. He says it is just different and when you get into it you can begin to appreciate the subtleties of the thrash, crash and bash. Listening to him practice, I can hear the subtleties...but then he plays it 20 times faster and it is all lost on my ears and head. Yet....in the past couple of years...I must admit that my appreciation of some of it has increased...and….oh no...I actually like some of it. Still don't know the darn names... And for him, it is not art...far from it. For him it is something to do, makes him feel good...and the girls like it too. Come to think of it...that was the way I felt about it when I was 17....was I ever 17...oh yeah....a long time ago.
Point being...an amazing thing this music...to be able to touch so many people in so many ways with so many different sounds, progressions, speeds...truly a wonderful thing...and a gift in my eyes. Not to mention being something he and I can still sit down and talk about, argue about, marvel at together. That in itself is a gift.
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"Again, I think I can see the appeal for a beginning player to try to emulate this..."art form", but I would suspect that psychologically it must mainly appeal to post pubescent males as an expression of their inherent apostasy."
ouch. i was trying to be nice and not cause any trouble since i am kinda new here. however, i do agree totally and actually couldn't have said it better myself. a wordsmith i am not. i am more of the "that sh*t sucks and you're dumb for liking it" kinda guy. nicely put. kudos.
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"Again, I think I can see the appeal for a beginning player to try to emulate this..."art form", but I would suspect that psychologically it must mainly appeal to post pubescent males as an expression of their inherent apostasy."
ouch. i was trying to be nice and not cause any trouble since i am kinda new here. however, i do agree totally and actually couldn't have said it better myself. a wordsmith i am not. i am more of the "that sh*t sucks and you're dumb for liking it" kinda guy. nicely put. kudos.
:?
Well, based on what you posted as a response, do you know what EdBass said or in what contex...
:?
Neva mind.
:-D
Hmm... pssstt... claim "Brain Freeze".
:-o
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well, i suppose ed meant that he thinks the appeal that draws people to the band is because they are such a departure from the norm that the consumer would feel "cool" or hip to be "in to" them. and he can't really understand why someone would like them since he doesn't really care for that type of music. i could be waaaaaaay off.
and yes, i have wondered about the name rip off per say. it's more of an homage to the type of amps the guys love. even though it really isn't. they (the band sunn) started doing what they do as an homage to the band "earth". not the pre- black sabbath earth. but another drone band from seattle. sunn was originally called "mars". earth / mars. then they changed to sunn because of the amps and because as to put it in to their words "the earth revolves around the sunn". poking fun. the band earth even had a record titled "sunn amps and smashed guitars live". so everything is kind of tonque in cheek and a play on words / names.
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well, i suppose ed meant that he thinks the appeal that draws people to the band is because they are such a departure from the norm that the consumer would feel "cool" or hip to be "in to" them.
Pretty much, but as much as an expression of rebellion as hipness. I think most adolescents, particularly males, go through a phase of rebellion as part of the normal maturation process. Kind of a by product of the testicles dropping, I think it’s natural for young adults to try to find their own identity, apart from simply being a little clone of their parents and/or other influences. Many times this manifests itself in things like vandalism, blowing sh*t up, etc.
Also, traditionally living vicariously through persons in the limelight for various reasons; musicians, athletes, actors, even publicized criminals, sometimes combinations of the afore mentioned identities (i.e football players indicted for assault, musicians arrested for DUI, and so on) is commonplace; these characters becoming role models of sorts, making the rationalization of aberrant behavior acceptable to the confused, impressionable, hormone addled mind.
Of course, clan mentality factors into this equation. Being a follower can carry the acceptance and reassurance of a like minded group, and go a long way towards validating this “individuality”.
Just as an example, the “Goth” culture; a bunch of kids striving to assert this individuality by being exactly like all of their peers.
Or…”Skinheads”
Or… “Drone”
Or…”Hip Hop”
Or…”Grunge”
Or…”Mods”
Or…”Rockers”
Or…”Jazz”
And so on…
I’m not being judgmental, lord knows as a man-child I personally am embarrassed by some of my own self righteous activities; my adult rational for some of my behavior the early 70’s is that I believe it to be a normal part of maturation.
While I do not in any way condone anti social behavior, I believe the real danger exists when these behaviors extend into adulthood, well beyond the time when the individual should move into the “responsible adult” phase of life.
Particularly in the instances where this afore mentioned youth mentality is exploited for financial or personal self esteem reasons.
and he can't really understand why someone would like them since he doesn't really care for that type of music. i could be waaaaaaay off.
Quite the contrary, as I state above I think it’s normal for young adults to be attracted to non mainstream attractions. In the case of music (and I use the term “music” very loosely in the example of the band Sunn), there is the added attraction that anybody with a guitar and an amp can emulate it, even without actual talent. This makes it accessible for the rock star “wanna be’s” to form “bands” and maybe garner some status among their peers, without the hassle of lessons, practice, etc.
Kind of the way jazz musicians must have looked at “Rock and Roll” in the 50’s.
and yes, i have wondered about the name rip off per say. it's more of an homage to the type of amps the guys love. even though it really isn't. they (the band sunn) started doing what they do as an homage to the band "earth". not the pre- black sabbath earth. but another drone band from seattle. sunn was originally called "mars". earth / mars. then they changed to sunn because of the amps and because as to put it in to their words "the earth revolves around the sunn". poking fun. the band earth even had a record titled "sunn amps and smashed guitars live". so everything is kind of tonque in cheek and a play on words / names.
Well, whatever.
I still would imagine that if the band ever got even close to mainstream, or if FMI would get serious about marketing the Sunn brand, the band and any of their pseudo “labels” would find their butts in a courtroom.
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Kind of the way jazz musicians must have looked at “Rock and Roll” in the 50’s.
And the way rockers looked at punks in the late seventies.
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Kind of the way jazz musicians must have looked at “Rock and Roll” in the 50’s.
And the way rockers looked at punks in the late seventies.
And so on, and so on, and so on... :wink:
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I still would imagine that if the band ever got even close to mainstream, or if FMI would get serious about marketing the Sunn brand, the band and any of their pseudo “labels” would find their butts in a courtroom.
Why would you think this?
Seriously, I wouldn't think FMI has any legal legs to stand on. I'm certainly not a lawyer, but I can see these concerns:
o FMI certainly doesn't own the word "Sunn". It was used as a name (for people as well as businesses) long before even old Norm though of using it for an MI company, regardless of how he might have justified it. It's even used as part of the name of a pseudo hemp plant.
o "Sunn O)))" is not a copy of the Sunn logo. It would never hold up in court as easily mistaken for the brand, like a Telecaster headstock outline would. This wouldn't either, even though it's closer.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QHVDHVXBL._SS500_.jpg)
o I don't believe the band has any intent... nor would they derive any benefit... from being associated with FMI. This could be debatable.
I guess I think the use of a name, unless there is an obvious intent to deceive (e.g. by sucking off FMI customers without knowledge on their part) is kind of fair game.
That's why we have Gibson as an MI company. And we have the Gibson which is sort of like a martini. There was/is a Gibson company that made household appliances, and we have parts companies still selling parts for these Gibsons. Then of course we can't forget the Gibson that drew the Gibson Girl for us.
If all it took was a name to be able to sue... Heck, if that were true you might not be able to get your fender repaired at a body shop.
:-D
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Joe, you might want to take a look at the litigation history of a company called McDonald's. Not only do they sue pretty much anyone who uses the name McDonald's, they sue pretty much anybody who uses any name with Mc in front of it.
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I still would imagine that if the band ever got even close to mainstream, or if FMI would get serious about marketing the Sunn brand, the band and any of their pseudo “labels” would find their butts in a courtroom.
Why would you think this?
Seriously, I wouldn't think FMI has any legal legs to stand on. I'm certainly not a lawyer, but I can see these concerns:
o FMI certainly doesn't own the word "Sunn". It was used as a name (for people as well as businesses) long before even old Norm though of using it for an MI company, regardless of how he might have justified it. It's even used as part of the name of a pseudo hemp plant.
o "Sunn O)))" is not a copy of the Sunn logo. It would never hold up in court as easily mistaken for the brand, like a Telecaster headstock outline would. This wouldn't either, even though it's closer.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QHVDHVXBL._SS500_.jpg)
o I don't believe the band has any intent... nor would they derive any benefit... from being associated with FMI. This could be debatable.
I guess I think the use of a name, unless there is an obvious intent to deceive (e.g. by sucking off FMI customers without knowledge on their part) is kind of fair game.
That's why we have Gibson as an MI company. And we have the Gibson which is sort of like a martini. There was/is a Gibson company that made household appliances, and we have parts companies still selling parts for these Gibsons. Then of course we can't forget the Gibson that drew the Gibson Girl for us.
If all it took was a name to be able to sue... Heck, if that were true you might not be able to get your fender repaired at a body shop.
:-D
Unless of course the aforementioned body shop was advertising "fender" repair using the attached logo...
It doesn't even take a "name" to sue. Frivolous law suits abound in our system of jurisprudence.
I could file suit against you Monday morning for some percieved slight in one of your posts; defamation, libel, etc., just to make your life miserable for a few months...
If I felt like flushing several thousand dollars down the toilet, and making myself wide open for legal recourse! :-D
As far as "legal legs", maybe yes, maybe no, that's for a court to decide.
But, as I will attempt to explain, it's likely a moot point.*
I think the Sunn logo is close enough, but If I was a gambling man, I'd bet we'll never know. To actually make it to trial would take a "perfect storm";
FMI would have to decide to resurrect the Sunn brand.
(?)
The band would need to reach a level of popularity where it would become a factor.
(Come on! Doubtful at best; they play one note songs for Pete’s sake...)
FMI's legal and marketing departments would have to determine that the band's association was detrimental to the brands overall appeal.
(Probably. while the band obviously has influence over some MI buyers, it's limited at best, and IMO mostly not potential buyers who would normally pony up to new gear price points. This, as with this entire dissertation, is pure speculation on my part, but I would imagine the "doom" genre is generally discredited among the demographic normally associated with new gear purchases)
Most importantly, the band would need the fiscal wherewithal to do battle.
(Civil court can be a very expensive proposition, I would think they would not have the war chest required for the task. Unless some entity with the resources should decide that the resultant publicity would equate to future revenue at a profit rate commiserate to the legal expense...)
Joe, I don't think I insinuated that FMI would necessarily win litigation, that would be questionable, trying to guess which way hizzoner will rule is like picking the Super Bowl winner... the 2010 Super Bowl.
But they likely wouldn't have to.
If FMI were to file, Sunn the band either answers the call ($$$), or a cease and desist is coming their way tuit suite.
Again, I can't really imagine this happening, but I would follow it with rapt attention if it did!
*The following opinions are purely speculative, and are not to be construed as legal advice or instruction in any manner.
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so be it-matters of taste are indisputable.
s
No doubt! That's one of the things that makes this such an interesting world.
I admit I've only listened to a limited selection of Sunn's material. It's not that I don't understand, can't grasp it, or I'm not "enlightened", but seriously and with no disrespect intended, I fail to see anything actually musical about them.
I know you have posted that these guys c a n play, can you provide a link, or otherwise direct me to a selection that contains content requiring musical talent to duplicate?
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so be it-matters of taste are indisputable.
s
No doubt! That's one of the things that makes this such an interesting world.
I admit I've only listened to a limited selection of Sunn's material. It's not that I don't understand, can't grasp it, or I'm not "enlightened", but seriously and with no disrespect intended, I fail to see anything actually musical about them.
I know you have posted that these guys c a n play, can you provide a link, or otherwise direct me to a selection that contains content requiring musical talent to duplicate?
Well Ed, maybe it is us. We've both been around a while, you obviously much longer. But not to the point where we can't get a couple/few of those old synapse connections to fire...
We learned the difference between music and noise. Music was that which had attributes like melody, harmony and rhythm. Noise was that which didn't have those attributes.
But that definition was much too objective. Too black and white. Shades of gray are infinitely preferred over black and white. Pastel shades can be awful purdy also. Imagine a whole rainbow of... ahem, sorry I digress.
People have their feelings hurt by such a concrete definition. It is just so politically incorrect and totally unnecessary. I heard the other day that "spin is your friend".
We can make anything real by just pretending - and there is no need not to pretend that noise and music are not the same thing. It hurts no one and makes everyone so nice and happy. And we all benefit because there is now so much more music to choose from in the world!!
What helped me change my mind about all of this is finding that this music actually has notation - in the form of guitar tab of course. Certainly you must agree it is music when there is guitar tab for it. That is really a superior definition of music IMHO.
I found this on the web and thought I would reproduce it here. It is more complex than you would expect and that explains it's "novice" rating. Watch out for the second and third changes as they might sneak up on you.
Death Becomes You
I don't remember if this is all or part of the song but it is basically the droney part
throughout the song.
The tuning is: A, E, A, D, Gb, B, wierd ain't it?
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|-0--------2--------3------------------0--------0--------0--------0--------|
|-0--------2--------3------------------0--------0--------0--------0--------|
|-0--------2--------3------------------0--------0--------0--------0--------|
Now with sufficient practice, we can all play along.
so be it-matters of taste are indisputable.
Parrot it a little longer and maybe you can get a few more people to believe it.
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so be it-matters of taste are indisputable.
Parrot it a little longer and maybe you can get a few more people to believe it.
its simply a quote from the latin:
"de gustibus non est disputatem"
i learned it in art school a long time ago.
it only means i like vanilla and you dont.
joe-i love your acumen on this site and i'm afraid when i ask a question about some thing going on w/ my Sunn rig-you will dismiss it because i like the band sunn.
i hope that doesnt happen man.
yours in music appreciation
staninsanfran
Should I mention that people speaking latin... died off a while ago? You sure you want to rely on their, uh... statements of wisdom??? :-D
It is inconsistent to claim your taste is indisputable, but then behave as if my obvious lack of taste is open for you to dispute. You can't have it both ways.
I really have no concern who you like. And chances are purdy darn good that I'm not going to remember anyway. Seriously, it ain't gonna change my life one iota.
Besides, I'm really not the petty one... although I do admit to devious!! :evil:
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Breaking news : old people don't understand new fangled music; claim its inferior to good old days.
More on this incredible news update at 6. :wink:
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Breaking news : old people don't understand new fangled music; claim its inferior to good old days.
More on this incredible news update at 6. :wink:
So it's only the young whippersnappers that like this noise?
Oops, "noise" is another genre.
Not sorry for any confusion that may cause since this confusion is authorized and approved by the record labels.
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bagaaaaack, steelers will win. steelers will win. baagaaaack!
(get it? parroting. super bowl predictions. nothing? allllllright)
joe would never stop answering questions because of something you like and he may not. he still talks with me. and i say some of the darndest things. :-D
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Nah it's not noise. One of the beautiful things about music is that notes and tones and all that crap don't mean anything in and of themselves. The human brain associates them with emotions in their most raw and unaffected state. If people get a rush from listening to drone, what does it matter how complicated the guitar parts look on tab? Does it make those feelings any less real for the listener who enjoys it than anything else? I can post plenty of insanely complicated guitar tabs of songs that mean absolutely nothing to me, for example. I just never understand why the bother about genres sometimes.
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"Nah it's not noise. One of the beautiful things about music is that notes and tones and all that crap don't mean anything in and of themselves. The human brain associates them with emotions in their most raw and unaffected state."
^^^AGREED!^^^
I will never understand how one musician can have the balls to say that what another musician produces is not music, much less any type of art form, strictly on the basis of them not liking it. Sunn O))) actually played as part of an art showing where their amps were all set up in a room, but they were isolated in a room off of the main gallery, where no one could see them.
And sure I've said I hated a band, and there are bands I dont listen to, and theres definitely bands that I will refuse to listen to if it comes on the radio, etc... But I will never deny that a specific band or artist is not music or art simply because I don't like it. That is just in bad taste.
And I type "Sunn O)))" because that is the bands name. I do understand that it is pronounced just "Sunn," when talking. And hey, since one of the n's is silent, why not just stop typing that? And then we can stop typing every letter in the english language that is silent in that case. Hell, lets just type and write how words sound to us rather than their actual, proper spelling. SOWNDZ AWSUM RITE?
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And to keep things on track a bit still...
(http://www.fazer.ca/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/rcweb.jpg)
A picture of the band Russian Circles with the guitar players set up in the background.
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so be it-matters of taste are indisputable.
Parrot it a little longer and maybe you can get a few more people to believe it.
its simply a quote from the latin:
"de gustibus non est disputatem"
i learned it in art school a long time ago.
it only means i like vanilla and you dont.
joe-i love your acumen on this site and i'm afraid when i ask a question about some thing going on w/ my Sunn rig-you will dismiss it because i like the band sunn.
i hope that doesnt happen man.
yours in music appreciation
staninsanfran
Just a nit, Stan. If you're going to quote from the Latin, you should get it right. It's De gustibus non est disputandum.
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And then we can stop typing every letter in the english language that is silent in that case. Hell, lets just type and write how words sound to us rather than their actual, proper spelling. SOWNDZ AWSUM RITE?
Isn't that called "texting"?
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russian circles is bad ass. must be something in the water up there in illinois. so many great bands from there these days.
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two sunns in this picture, a band from new jersey. The Dead Heros.
(http://a505.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/4/l_708d2d8de8b4f0c2bde15ade2acc2710.jpg)
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that picture above with the white painted model T that we all couldn't decide if it was the band sunn's gear or not......
it may in fact be a picture of the gear used by the band zoroaster from atlanta. i came accross a discussion of that band and someone posted a pic of their gear. it was that exact picture as the one posted above. they have been known to use very many sunn amps and cabs. the only problem i have with it being their gear is that they (zoroaster) also usually use a green matamp cab and head as well as an orange cab and head. i don't see those in the picture above.
still a mystery until we can get a definate answer.
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I am a Huge Russian Circles fan since Im from Chicago and have helped out the guys many times But I cant remember what the bassist (colin) used. From this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmOR1I2Q-OI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmOR1I2Q-OI) is looks like it could be 2 Sunn Concert Bass heads.
What do you guys think?
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that picture above with the white painted model T that we all couldn't decide if it was the band sunn's gear or not......
it may in fact be a picture of the gear used by the band zoroaster from atlanta. i came accross a discussion of that band and someone posted a pic of their gear. it was that exact picture as the one posted above. they have been known to use very many sunn amps and cabs. the only problem i have with it being their gear is that they (zoroaster) also usually use a green matamp cab and head as well as an orange cab and head. i don't see those in the picture above.
still a mystery until we can get a definate answer.
i checked my Sunn(the band) folder and found a few pix of Stephen O'Malley using a white painted Model T in the early days-he may have sold it down the line, since it hasnt been on his stage for a long time.
http://www.southern.com/southern/gallery/index.php?detail=1279
s
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Always the same argument everywhere...on every board...
"Yeah The Beatles suck because they can't compare to Vivaldi's virtuosity."
"SunnO))) sucks because they can't compare to Led Zepplin."
It's not a matter of what THEY "can't" do...it's a matter of the inabilty of select observers to appreciate music as an art form.
Be it vehicle for principle, expression and/or any variation between.
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Exsqueeze me?
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Always the same argument everywhere...on every board...
"Yeah The Beatles suck because they can't compare to Vivaldi's virtuosity."
"SunnO))) sucks because they can't compare to Led Zepplin."
It's not a matter of what THEY "can't" do...it's a matter of the inabilty of select observers to appreciate music as an art form.
Be it vehicle for principle, expression and/or any variation between.
Interesting analogy, however I think it struggles under some very obvious conceptual flaws;
Music is an art form and is recognized as such by the majority of persons.
IMO even bad music is an art form.
Perhaps noise is considered an art form in certain circles, but it’s not music anymore than the sound of a 747 taking off, or the sound of rush hour traffic, or the sound of a forklift falling off of a loading dock is.
IMO The Beatles, Zep and Vivaldi et al are/were artists. Simple or complex, good or bad, love it or hate it, the aforementioned created and/or performed “music”; a widely recognized art form.
IMO the band “Sunn” makes noise and attempts to package this noise as music. From the albeit small sampling I’ve tasted there seems to be a rudimentary musical structure at times, but it appears the main thrust is uncontrolled harmonic (and sometimes even discordant) audio distortion, relegating their “art” to the realm of “noise”.
So, art form? Debatable. Music? Maybe slightly more musical than a passing freight train, but not music by definition. I wish the members of the entire “drone” culture continued success, if they are indeed "successful"; but let’s call it for what it is, and not try to draw any analogy between the band Sunn and Vivaldi for Pete’s sake.
I'm not suggesting that people shouldn’t patronize the genre, if someone wants to pay to listen to a recording of an empty 50 gallon drum rolling down a staircase or audio of NHTSA automobile crash tests and call it an art form that's fine by me.
In fact, all of this is just dandy in my book! As I’ve stated, as a capitalist myself I appreciate the fact that they can market their product for financial gain. I won’t go into my thoughts (again) about how they accomplish this feat, what demographic they have seemingly tapped into, it doesn’t matter. More power to them, I wish every struggling “musician wanna be” could lock into a sustaining revenue stream, it might ease the tax burden on us working stiffs a little bit!
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IMO the band “Sunn” makes noise and attempts to package this noise as music. From the albeit small sampling I’ve tasted there seems to be a rudimentary musical structure at times, but it appears the main thrust is uncontrolled harmonic (and sometimes even discordant) audio distortion, relegating their “art” to the realm of “noise”.
I believe it's been mentioned here, but they(Sunn) actually have composed the pieces they play. It might just seem like meandering noise, but you could also say AC/DC have been doing performance art by releasing the same album to an apparently oblivious public audience.
That being said, I think there should be a few more bands being posted on here. Can't the "Sunn: Art, Crap, or Music" thing be moved to it's own thread?
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Agreed.
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Some of these have been mentioned but these are some great pictures of great current bands using sunn amps:
(images are linked to the entire photo set - I found all of these on www.returntothepit.com)
Cave In | http://www.myspace.com/cavein
Model T and 2 1200s I believe
Live video, 2 sunn amps used: Youtube - Cave In - Big Riff (http://youtube.com/watch?v=7rajTDeDTmc&feature=related)
(http://returntothepit.com/rttppics/cave_in072_103155.jpg) (http://returntothepit.com/concert.php?band=cave_in&date=2004-07-17)
ISIS | http://www.myspace.com/sgnl05
Model T
(http://returntothepit.com/rttppics/isis002_259138.jpg) (http://returntothepit.com/concert.php?band=isis&date=2006-05-05)
Disappearer | http://www.myspace.com/disappearerus
Model T
(http://returntothepit.com/rttppics/disappearer013_411959.jpg) (http://returntothepit.com/concert.php?band=disappearer&date=2008-02-24)
Akimbo | http://www.myspace.com/akimbo
coliseum bass?
(http://returntothepit.com/rttppics/akimbo043_282046.jpg) (http://returntothepit.com/concert.php?band=akimbo&date=2006-07-25)
Clouds | http://www.myspace.com/cloudsrock
Same guitarist as Cave In, I think they both use 1200s's but one is 7 knob version.
check out this video as well: Youtube - Clouds - Empires in Basements (http://youtube.com/watch?v=X1q2agn_4dg)
(http://returntothepit.com/rttppics/clouds005_420140.jpg) (http://returntothepit.com/concert.php?band=clouds&date=2008-04-04)
Zozobra | http://www.myspace.com/zozobra505
Same guitarists as Clouds, but a MUCH heavier sound, same amps!
check out this video as well: Youtube - Zozobra - Silverghost live (audio only - 2 1200s's panned left and right!!) (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Nbxzr3y6ykM)
(http://returntothepit.com/rttppics/zozobra021_331694.jpg) (http://returntothepit.com/concert.php?band=zozobra&date=2007-03-17)
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Zozobra is Caleb from Cave In, and Clouds I believe is Adam.
Both are brilliant live. Thanks so much for posting all of those! RTTP is an amazing collection of pictures, but I find it takes forever to load.
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ISIS,
jeah, one of the best Bands at this very moment. Saw them last year, they used a VHT Pitbull instead of the Model T's.
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Yea! I saw Zozobra last year and my head about crumbled, being 10 feet and ear level with those sunn's was one of the things that inspired me to get one! And Clouds are an incredible live band as well, those guys give it their all. Super cool guys too, it's all about the music for them. Glad to see some fans of this type of stuff around here! The new clouds album just came out, and Zozobra is apparently releasing their new album July 12? I think? With Aaron Harris of ISIS on drums.
And RTTP does run quite slow... but with all the stuff on there I suppose it's understandable. A friend of mine in the Boston area told me about that site as he knows the guy who runs it, he does all the photography for free though, if I understood correctly, pretty cool! I tried to pass along the "get more gear shots!" comment :P
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To the person that requested seeing a pic of Hendrix playing through a Model-T. I don't think you'll see that unless it's a doctored picture. I believe that Hendrix was dead before th Model -T was released.
To my knowledge, the only Sunn amp that Hendrix really liked was the old Coliseum PA head because it was 120 Watts, the other amps were the 60 Watt models and to him they weren't powerful enough. He then went on to use Marshall.
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Here's a couple of Sunn ads I've never seen before today.
http://www.pappalardi.com/M19.html
What's up? Can't post pictures anymore?
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Cool pictures loudthud!! They are similar to the Ad that was in my local music store when I was a teenager. The Ad I've been looking for if I remember correctly had Mountain standing in front of a Wall of Sunn. I'm not sure if they were even playing, but I remember drooling over this poster and wanting a Sunn amp more than anything! I hope your friend has the one I remember.
Johnny G.
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Well, I've read through this entire thread. Great arguments. Some good observations.
Here is a youtube piece.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?=ZFUUtGVsEOE&feature=related
...part of a tune from Mountain. Some people then and maybe some now think this is noise. I consider it rock music. And...the sound is a Gibson P-90 roaring through a bigass Sunn amp. I never personally experienced that sound until lately through a 1200S and a 6X12
turned WAY up with the mid boost in. Rock nirvana for that sound, imho. Louder 'n' hell.....lots of noise. Big tonal pallette.
Harmonics flying wildly.
One observation on the discussion. Somewhere in there someone referred to the job of a critic. A true critic sets their personal taste aside. Their job is to critique only what the aim of the artist is and how well the artist acheived that goal. The critic doesn't have to like the art at all. The critic does have to be honest. A critic who interjects personal taste into their work is being unfaithful to their job. Difficult job, that one.
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Definetion of the word critic;a guy who hangs around people with talent. Mel.
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cult humour:
(http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv80/Vulpini/sunnO.jpg)
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rant much?
what if you simply like sunn the band sunn the amps and sunn the sound?
banishment?
just askin
staninsanfran
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I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this before, but this thread has turned into a bunch of people jerking themselves off over their particular opinions of a band that other people may or may not like.
I dig them, and if they want a couple bottles of juice, beer, and wine after they get offstage, so be it. If people want to spend hundreds of dollars on merch at their shows, good for them. If you want to sneak in to a show, only to complain about everything after, then do it up.
They're making the most of their careers. That isn't a crime, and if you don't like it, you'll just have to stop sneaking into their shows.
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They're making the most of their careers.
really I'm just complaining because the amp prices have gone up so much because of the band name.. I am into the drone and all about huge rigs but man.. if they'd just picked a different name (or stuck with mars)... I am lame and poor and it was hard enough when obscure Sunns were only a few hundred bucks; I don't know how I'll manage if Model Ts start going for Dumble or blackface Fender prices.. but, for now there are still gems out there switching hands for great deals, so it's no reason to fret. Sorry guys! I didn't mean to rant or bring the hate - I take it back..
guess I'll just have to start a band called Earth Sound Research or Acoustic and start doing splits with Sunn O))).. :-P
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guess I'll just have to start a band called Earth Sound Research or Acoustic and start doing splits with Sunn O))).. :-P
OK sorry if i said 'rant'
i have 9 T's and use every one of them when i play-which aint much-no one wants to hear that much sound i guess.
Sunno))) is coming to my town this summer and everything is right w/ the world.
sorry-been drinking some argentine red wine :-)
luckily i gott my T's when prices were righteous.
s
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Ha! If you ever find yourself only needed a measly 8 I would happily pay you a righteous price!
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really I'm just complaining because the amp prices have gone up so much because of the band name.. I am into the drone and all about huge rigs but man.. if they'd just picked a different name (or stuck with mars)... I am lame and poor and it was hard enough when obscure Sunns were only a few hundred bucks; I don't know how I'll manage if Model Ts start going for Dumble or blackface Fender prices.. but, for now there are still gems out there switching hands for great deals, so it's no reason to fret. Sorry guys! I didn't mean to rant or bring the hate - I take it back..
I don't blame you for that, but they certainly didn't set out to rejuvenate an interest in Sunn gear. There is some good to it, as people who shell out on the amps, expecting something they're not going to get(high-gain M/B-style amplification, for example), will drop them soon enough. The Model T may never depreciate in value, but when I can still snag a Solarus in mint condition for $300 Canadian, there's still justice in the world. :)
In the meantime, I'm going to start a band called YBA-1A MKII, or Traynor; we'll do an Acoustic/Traynor split 5"!
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I don't blame you for that, but they certainly didn't set out to rejuvenate an interest in Sunn gear. There is some good to it, as people who shell out on the amps, expecting something they're not going to get(high-gain M/B-style amplification, for example), will drop them soon enough. The Model T may never depreciate in value, but when I can still snag a Solarus in mint condition for $300 Canadian, there's still justice in the world. :)
In the meantime, I'm going to start a band called YBA-1A MKII, or Traynor; we'll do an Acoustic/Traynor split 5"!
It's true. I've managed to find the 610L, Beta Bass + 1x15 (not the combo, just in the same purchase), Concert Lead, and Concert Controller PA all for $100 each, so I really can't complain. My A212 was $400 at the time, and my beta 4x12 was only $200 but was gift anyway.
btw, is your Solarus the piggyback version or the kind that's attached to the cab?
also, yes we must certainly do that split but it would have to be with Earth Sound Research as I do not actually own any CCC gear.
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btw, is your Solarus the piggyback version or the kind that's attached to the cab?
Both of the Solarus' I have are just the head. I tried to get the 'combo' a while back, but the person was asking for more than I thought it would be worth, so I decided against the purchase.
The split will be awesome. I'm going to record the sound of the amp turned on. The track will run the entirety of my side of the 5", and it'll be called '60hz.' CAN'T WAIT!!!! :)
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yes, it is pronounced "sun". that's why i can't understand why anyone would type the o)))'s. they are silent.
in my never ending quest for sunn gear, i was in a music shop in state college, pa. asking if the guy had any sunn gear. the guy said "nope. but i wish i did. the prices of those things have gone through the roof ever since that band sun-oh has come on the scene". i chuckled and walked away. then i went in to another shop and bought a sun-oh concert lead and 4x12L cabinet.
and joe, yes, i think the band SUNN is extremely over rated and can't understand the hype about them at all. i let my step son-oh plug in all my sunn gear, tune down, close his eyes, and play guitar with his feet. i record it and sell the recordings on ebay as sunno))) bootlegged live shows.
eh, maybe i'm just jealous because i didn't think to do what they do first.
Right 0))). WHen I registered on this site to post comments, They asked what brand of musical gear the site is about. I answered sunn0))). bzzt- WRONG 0)))! I'm so stupid, almost failed the written test, good thing they offered another chance to guess again. This site is about Sunn Musical equipment, not sunn0))) musical equipment. The 0))) is silent in print as well, it is only pronounced on the badges
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yes, it is pronounced "sun". that's why i can't understand why anyone would type the o)))'s. they are silent.
in my never ending quest for sunn gear, i was in a music shop in state college, pa. asking if the guy had any sunn gear. the guy said "nope. but i wish i did. the prices of those things have gone through the roof ever since that band sun-oh has come on the scene". i chuckled and walked away. then i went in to another shop and bought a sun-oh concert lead and 4x12L cabinet.
and joe, yes, i think the band SUNN is extremely over rated and can't understand the hype about them at all. i let my step son-oh plug in all my sunn gear, tune down, close his eyes, and play guitar with his feet. i record it and sell the recordings on ebay as sunno))) bootlegged live shows.
eh, maybe i'm just jealous because i didn't think to do what they do first.
Right 0))). WHen I registered on this site to post comments, They asked what brand of musical gear the site is about. I answered sunn0))). bzzt- WRONG 0)))! I'm so stupid, almost failed the written test, good thing they offered another chance to guess again. This site is about Sunn Musical equipment, not sunn0))) musical equipment. The 0))) is silent in print as well, it is only pronounced on the badges
It's not so much that they are silent, I believe they are actually a picture of the sun with sound waves radiating from it, not letters at all.
So I suppose the correct pronunciation would be "Sunn; picture of the sun with sound waves radiating from it".
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I was just watching an old video of Deep Purple on the Playboy After Dark show, and guess what I happen to see behind bassist Nick Simper? A Sunn Orion series amp and cab.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiXcqxms3Bs
Most prominent just as they start laying around 1:34, but you can see it a couple times. 1:53, 2:17, 3:02, 3:49, etc.
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I was just watching an old video of Deep Purple on the Playboy After Dark show, and guess what I happen to see behind bassist Nick Simper? A Sunn Orion series amp and cab.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiXcqxms3Bs
Most prominent just as they start laying around 1:34, but you can see it a couple times. 1:53, 2:17, 3:02, 3:49, etc.
Wow, so somebody actually did use an Orion! :roll:
Cool clip! I remember 1968, but I forgot all about those "boy bouffant" hairdos.
It looks like they are wearing helmets. :lol:
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Ah yes - 1968 - I was a sophomore at Ashley High School playing bass in a very good band named The Spidells. That band didn't play Deep Purple. More Rhythm & Blues since we had a 3 piece horn section. Great memories. :-D
A good many of these were around :mrgreen: ('fros)
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Yeah, it seems like the Orions just disappeared from the face of the planet after the early 70s. This is the only band I've ever seen using them. I've only ever seen the adds for them, and even those are pretty uncommon.
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Annihilation Time, great punk/hard rock band from California used Sunn all the time. Model T, Beta Lead, Beta Bass and others...
Unfortunately they broke up last year. My friend booked them 2 shows here in Belgrade, Serbia, and they were amazing both times.
(http://www.returntothepit.com/rttppics/363544.jpg)
Here's some cool video. Around 2:00 you can see some close shots of I think Concert Lead, Beta Bass and a couple of Sunn cabs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul6ctytYaWE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul6ctytYaWE)
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Coil cords - I use them! Vox makes some really solid ones these days in funky colors.
I played my Sunn Enforcer last night at pactice running it through an Orange PPC412 - brought the doom like a sunn of a biotch. Volume was good, but as much as I thought it would be dimed though, my Orange and Marshall are both louder. But it was not lacking (we play stupid loud so it was fine, in fact we are starting to turn it down so we can hear the singer through the PA and we even drown out the drummer sometimes lol), kept up with a dimed Matamp GTO120, really from 5 to 10 it didn't get me much more volume, my Beta Lead is the same way, gets really loud fast then tapers off. Tones: dark, doomy, vintage, heavy and growly. I blended both channels (like I do on my Beta Lead) for ultimate tones. It is the best sounding amp I have for the doom stuff we do. We started out as a doom band and still play a bunch of that stuff but we are slowly moving more into the stoner rock side of things, our new song for instance sounds like a Clutch song and we have several that are Kyuss influenced.
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Randy Holden from his solo album Population II. The man liked his Orions
(http://www.guitargod.com/images/randyholden15c.jpg)
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Akimbo again :
(http://b3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/00550/38/12/550842183_l.jpg)
Sunn Coliseum bass, Sunn T50C, etc. 8-)
Boris :
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v487/noodlesbad/july08blog/boris071308bab3small.jpg)
Model T's.
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Akimbo again :
(http://b3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/00550/38/12/550842183_l.jpg)
Sunn Coliseum bass, Sunn T50C, etc. 8-)
I believe Akimbo now plays through Verellen amps, as well. http://www.verellenamplifiers.com/
Looks to be a modern-day version of what Sunn was, though Brian Verellen does a lot of custom work.
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You're right, they play with Verellen Amps now (http://www.verellenamplifiers.com/customers.html).
The pic I added is one of their previous rigs (taken in 2006 I think).
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"I've never loved a guitar amplifier as much as my Verellen Custom Head. From quiet to roaring loud this beautiful piece of work holds rock solid no matter what you play through it. I am proud to have one of the first few in production and cannot wait to get my hands on my next Verellen "Coop" 50watt. Ben has put some serious thought and love into the product and stands by every piece created all the way, taking care of you until you're happy. Trust me, you'll only come back for more. I've also demoed the Meat Smoke and i would choose that head over any Sunn Model T, SVT Classic, or Marshall Superbass any day. That amplifier will destroy anything in it's path and crush minds with guitar or bass. Verellen Amplifiers and Cabs were created to last and only satisfy your every need. I don't care to play anything else."
Wow. I'd like to try one out. In fact, I'd like to own one if I had the money. Pretty strong words, kind of.
Funny. I kept on reading the reviews and one comes from a guy who plays in a band Bosque. Only funny cuz I know the singer/bass player of that band. Small world.
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I don't think this picture has been posted yet:
Early, Early Kiss, actually, at the time I think they were known as Wicked Lester.
Looks like a 1000s series, most likely a 2000s from the four knobs, and the fact that it looks like there's another guitar amp to the right.
http://www.kissfaq.com/pictures/kiss_72_001_lg.jpg
(http://www.kissfaq.com/pictures/kiss_72_001_lg.jpg)
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don't know if this was noticed... or if it is a Model T that I believe I've spotted.. but BTO anybody? go to 2:00...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7miRCLeFSJo
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A humorous sidebar to the Sunn 0))) debate. A little while back, I brought a Coliseum head in to the tech at the good local music shop. (I couldn't figure out where the new hum was coming from after I put the innards back in the case. Genius here had reversed the wires to the reverb.)
When I was picking it up, a young guy and his attractive girlfriend came over. He was admiring the amp, asked when it was made and if I had owned it since 1971 etc. Then he asked "Do you play in a stoner band"
Before I could answer, his companion barked out "NO!" So I asked her "You mean I don't look like I play in a stoner band?" (Just because I'm over 50 with short hair, doesn't mean...uh...) Once again "NO!"
The guys behind the counter jumped in "Sure he does!" and "He's the king of the stoner scene." The girl was not persuaded: "HE DOES NOT!"
Ah well.... :wink:
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Just another unwelcome reminder that we're not as young as we used to be!
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My jaw dropped at the wall of amps in the Hendrix picture, just thought I'd let you all know.
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Here we go again!
At just before the 27 second mark the picture is visible, and way off to the right is what appears to be a larger model Sunn (1000s or 2000s) sitting atop a marshall full-stack. Also, the cabinet directly below the SVT is a Sunn.
Anthem-Rush (Live 1974)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fvt0f1HN8lU&feature=related
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So it is.
NICE.
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Wow this was actually a sad thread. Lots of people bashing Sunn for their talentless drones which are not music, or whatever. Very close minded to call someone's creation not music and talentless. The ultimate peaceful person sees but does not criticize, because they realize it is pointless and hypocritical.
Is not the conception of music the majority of the creative process while physically playing it is the secondary, easier part? Sit on the corner of your bed and play guitar for 6 hours per day, you'll be a good player, but you're probably not being too unique because you're just running through the guitar licks Van Halen and a billion people already did forever. Try to conceptualize something unique that tries to go beyond the accepted creative spectrum and use guitars and amplifiers in a new way. Can you? I sure as hell basically can't.
Whenever I hear people complain about bands that are "bad" I always think in my mind "What have you done and why is it legitimate? Is it legit beacuse it 'fits in?' Why should anyone's creative process ever be deemed legitimate or illegitimate? Why are you for some reason an authority on 'good' and 'bad?'"
As other people have said, Sunn, and a billion other bands that do experimental music, are trying to do something interesting, not just play the same chords that everyone has played since guitar was invented. It's so sad how people jump on you for doing something that's not "normal." Do you realize you are negating people who are trying to go outside of the normal musical spectrum? Isn't this how every genre of music ever was created? Would you criticize hard bop when it was played for the first time, or kraut rock, or funk, or heavy metal? Was that 'not music' at first? Do you criticize scientists and engineers who try to innovate and bring something new to the world, whether conceptually or physically?? Do you prefer stagnancy and redundancy?
For the record Sunn is not innovating in that they are creating drone, as others have said drone music has been around forever (ragas, for expample), but they are certainly pushing the limits of drone, and incorporating lots of dreariness, volume, and metal into it, which I think is cool. The guitar has been played every which way; they don't care. They are playing amplifiers. The whole point of that band is the total musical experience, physical, aural, and visual. Whether you enjoy it or not is a personal feeling, to say it is bad or illegitimate or "not music" is in my mind self righteous.
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>CONCUR<
well said
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^^See, I thought we had finally left all that behind, and here it is being drug up again. :cry:
Anyways, found another video with some Sunn gear. This one is the Ventures. Cue police chase:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79v97DcIU98&feature=related
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that Ventures vid is killer
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Yes I probably should have left it in the past.
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concur :wink:
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New installment!
Some more Rush:
(http://www.musicintheabstract.org/rush-oddities/images/early-rush-rutsey-bandstand-ii.jpg)
(http://www.musicintheabstract.org/rush-oddities/images/early-early-rush.jpg)
(http://www.musicintheabstract.org/rush-oddities/images/rush-rutsey.jpg)
(http://www.2112.net/powerwindows/downloads/wallpaper/FBNtourlive06calendar.jpg)
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Was watching Cheech & Chong up in smoke the other night, during the battle of the bands performance. Spotted a Sunn 412L (maybe a 610S) in the background 8-)
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What were you doing watching up in smoke??? :?
:lol:
In all seriousness I would have been bongripping
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I was watching The Runaways movie and there is a few shots of a sunn head and cab not exactly sure which head it was but you could see the sunn logo. BTW the movie sucked. :x
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My God...............I've found.........ORIONS!
(http://www.thewho.net/whotabs/images/equipment/guitar/196807_grandeballroombw1_c.jpg)
(http://www.thewho.net/whotabs/images/equipment/guitar/19680712_indianabeach_pt.jpg)
(http://www.thewho.net/whotabs/images/equipment/guitar/19680708_sacramento.jpg)
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Is that a Concert PA head that he's playing through, in that last shot?
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No, I believe that is an Orion preamp. They have the same kind of aesthetics.
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There,s a pretty good video of the Who playing Emenence Front on YouTube. It's by Stan3. Townshend and Entwhistle are walking across the stage an the bass set up looks to be 3 4x12 cabs ecah on top of an older 118BH.
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link or it doesnt exist
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here's a cool pic of glenn cornick with his bass setup in the 70's (paris-era?)
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Sunn Coliseum Slave in standing on it's side next to the PA:
(http://www.shavedneck.com/edarnaudphotography/Black%20Flag/images/BFLAG8.jpg)
(This is Black Flag by the way, and in all likelyhood, not theirs, but hey it's Black Flag and a Sunn amp, all 'Flag worshipers use Sunn)
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Sunn Coliseum Slave in standing on it's side next to the PA:
(http://www.shavedneck.com/edarnaudphotography/Black%20Flag/images/BFLAG8.jpg)
(This is Black Flag by the way, and in all likelyhood, not theirs, but hey it's Black Flag and a Sunn amp, all 'Flag worshipers use Sunn)
Haha, that's pretty neat. I do know for a fact they used solid state stuff A LOT, especially Peavey's. Ginn HATED what tubes did to his guitar sound. Pretty sure Dukowski was using an all solid state rig for a while as well. Even so, I think you're right and it's probably not theirs.
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Yeah. I stumbled upon a forum full of knowledge of Greg's solid state rig. Unfortunately it's no longer in my search history... :/
I have seen a picture though where Dez Cadena was using a full stack topped with either a red knob Concert Lead or a Coliseum Lead/880. I'm on the hunt for it, I have three books back at home that are chock full of pics of the 'Flag, next time I'm there, I'lll try to find it and scan it in.
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Oh yeah, totally forgot about Dez's possible gear. Cool to know he was running Sunns though.
Seems like a popular choice for the scene/area at the time along w/ Frank Navetta of The Descendents (running a Beta Lead) as well as countless others I'm sure.
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oh and I found this, a short run down of some of Ginn's equipment
http://rockwhore.tripod.com/blackflag/equip/
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this list seems more complete
http://jazz.openfun.org/wiki/Greg_Ginn
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There's also a forum that I found the other night with a ton of history on Greg's rigs and guitars.
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Model 12 speaker behind Robo(?)
(http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/42349209/Black+Flag+Greg+and+Robo.jpg)
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definitely kinda looks like one to me.
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Yeah, almost 100% certain. I'm still looking for the picture where Dez is using this giant stack with either a Coliseum or a red knob Concert on top.
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I'm still looking for the picture where Dez is using this giant stack with either a Coliseum or a red knob Concert on top.
Yeah, I'm real interested in seeing this.
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I'm also starting to get the feeling that The Faction (classic skate-punk from Santa Cruz/San Jose) used Sunn amps, based on their tones in their recordings, Betas and Alphas specifically.
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I really love those amps. I have to say, as much as people swear by the Coliseums, I really like the Beta Series a lot. Tons of bands have used them to record some of the best, heaviest and weirdest records of all time. Nirvana, The Melvins, Tool, Slash
(http://guitargeek.com/rigs/img/m/melvins_buzzo_2001.gif)
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I also really love the whole era of The Melvins when Kevin played bass. All Beta Bass all the time.
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I really wanna build a rack set up with a Beta BP-10 like Buzz has or at least get a Beta. However, I feel utterly dedicated to my red knob Concert Lead and RAT 2 and don't see that changing anytime soon as my main rig.
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Walt-Dog-i got both a PB-10 and a Beta Lead head when yer ready to deal, bro.
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Stanner, where are you located?
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san fran bro
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You know, I think you hit me up back on Harmony Central a ways back. Well I'm SF now myself, if you don't mind, I'd love to come check out both amps and see which one would suit me best if you're looking to sell.
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Just found this now, check out The Ventures and their Sunn amps! In the desert!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79v97DcIU98
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That video rules dude!
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Just found this now, check out The Ventures and their Sunn amps! In the desert!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79v97DcIU98
Great video! That's the "groovy" version of The Ventures, with their hip late 60's look and gear.
This was them just a few years earlier with their Mosrites, I think they used Fender amps at the time;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vqnzH2xIro&feature=related
What a transformation!
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Yup Fender with 15"s it was!! :-D
Another amazing vid by the way.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8__EwAT8VM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8__EwAT8VM)
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Cool stuff ... but how about that poor bass player having the smallest rig? That's just not right!
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Found another one.
Billy Cox in Band of Gypsies. I believe this is from the Fillmore Shows.
(http://www.rockprophecy.com/images/bogtrio.gif)
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Found this on Wolfgang's Vault.
I spy a head (unknown model) and Orion cabs!
(http://images.wolfgangsvault.com/the-allman-brothers-band/fine-art-print/memorabilia/ASM700613-01-03-FP.jpg)
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Have you seen this one?
(I found it here: http://jackcasady.com/images/JackCasady-and-JimiHendrix.jpg).
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This is the Dead , Pigpen I think, and Bob Weir(?) playing Sunn back in the day. Can someone blow this up plz.?
(http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n134/dickdog1/th_fillmoreeast69.jpg?t=1293899754)
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Have you seen this one?
Such a beautiful rig.
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Riders on the Storm 200s rig
(http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j266/photonix_photos/JerryStormRider.jpg)
Jerry Scheff in the studio with the doors for the LA Women album.
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cool shot of that doors session-who is the second guitarist @ the back wall?
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Looks like his name is Marc Benno : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Benno
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MC5 anyone?
(http://makemyday.free.fr/pic80.jpg)
(http://cache1.asset-cache.net/xc/85368314.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA5480CB725BCD309C08A24ECA180C05D8E5E517D494C2375F371)
(http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/85368401.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA548B7018898760E75A224ECA180C05D8E5E00645AB86F21A672)
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Ah Yesss. The Motor City 5 ( MC5) remeber them well. I lived in Michigan and saw a number of their concerts. Don't ever remember seeing them with Sunn amps. It was usually WEST ( made in Michigan ) or Marshalls.
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Brownsville Station was a painfully loud band out of Michigan. They played at the Paramont Theater in Portland a couple of times when I worked there sometime around '72 to '74. I hesitate to copy pictures and post them here due to Copyright restrictions but checkout their unofficial website. You can clearly see the bass player using a Coliseum Bass and Coliseum Slave but you can't get a good look at what the guitar player is using.
The band brought their own drum riser and had two 4x8 sheets of plywood that were full of eyebolts. The position of every drum and cymbal stand was carefully marked and at least three bungie cords used to hold things in place. At the end of almost every song, the guitar and bass players would jump up on the corners of the drum riser, grind on the last cord, let it feed back for a second, then jump high in the air and cut the sound off as they hit the stage. Their biggest hit was "Smokin in the Boy's Room".
http://bs.angeltowns.com/index.html
Best shots of Sunn gear:
http://bs.angeltowns.com/Donkirshner.html
http://bs.angeltowns.com/inconcert.html
http://bs.angeltowns.com/midnitespecial.html
Gordon, How right you are. I'm from Michigan and remember seeing them in 1969 when they were a 4 piece band.
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Riders on the Storm 200s rig
(http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j266/photonix_photos/JerryStormRider.jpg)
Jerry Scheff in the studio with the doors for the LA Women album.
This pic reminds me of when I was the editor of a music magazine in the 90s. I had a 22 y.o. kid I hired as an assistant editor and he had gone to a Jewish wedding of another of our editors over the previous weekend.
On Monday, he came in and was telling me about it. then he says..."The only part that sucked was that some fat, bald old Jewish guy heard I worked for a music magazine and started telling me some bullshit that he played bass with Steve Stills and Mike Bloomfield on Super Session and The Doors and Bob Dylan....What a nutjob..."
I yelled over "His name wasn't Harvey was it?"
The kid stops and looks over really shocked and said "Yeah. How'd you know that?"
I quietly mumble...."Harvey Brooks....very famous session player from the '60s....Dumbass."
About two weeks after that, I get in a heated debate with the kid after he edits a feature on the history of the blues and changes every "Negro" and "Black" bluesman reference to "African American Bluesman." I tell him that there was no such term at that time and he is putiing political correctness before historical accuracy. He gets real defensive and starts ranting that he is correct.
I get on the phone and call the drummer I'd been recording with, a black guy who has played with everyone from Weather Report to Billy Joel. He picks up, I explain the situation and he says "put that boy on the phone and let me straighten his ass out..."
It was classic.
When he got off the phone, I asked the kid..."Just what DID they teach you in college?"
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This pic reminds me of when I was the editor of a music magazine in the 90s. I had a 22 y.o. kid I hired as an assistant editor and he had gone to a Jewish wedding of another of our editors over the previous weekend.
On Monday, he came in and was telling me about it. then he says..."The only part that sucked was that some fat, bald old Jewish guy heard I worked for a music magazine and started telling me some bullshit that he played bass with Steve Stills and Mike Bloomfield on Super Session and The Doors and Bob Dylan....What a nutjob..."
I yelled over "His name wasn't Harvey was it?"
The kid stops and looks over really shocked and said "Yeah. How'd you know that?"
I quietly mumble...."Harvey Brooks....very famous session player from the '60s....Dumbass."
About two weeks after that, I get in a heated debate with the kid after he edits a feature on the history of the blues and changes every "Negro" and "Black" bluesman reference to "African American Bluesman." I tell him that there was no such term at that time and he is putiing political correctness before historical accuracy. He gets real defensive and starts ranting that he is correct.
I get on the phone and call the drummer I'd been recording with, a black guy who has played with everyone from Weather Report to Billy Joel. He picks up, I explain the situation and he says "put that boy on the phone and let me straighten his ass out..."
It was classic.
When he got off the phone, I asked the kid..."Just what DID they teach you in college?"
I think I know what happened to that “kid”. He must be the one that just rewrote a sanitized version of Mark Twain’s “Huck Finn”, removing the “N” words and “Injun” in the interest of correcting history for us.
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I am a Huge Russian Circles fan since Im from Chicago and have helped out the guys many times But I cant remember what the bassist (colin) used. From this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmOR1I2Q-OI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmOR1I2Q-OI) is looks like it could be 2 Sunn Concert Bass heads.
What do you guys think?
]
Look more like Coliseums to me. Longer and thinner then Concerts.
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Cream+Sunn Orions?
(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-ash1/v199/245/83/11301121403/n11301121403_529008_6652.jpg)
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Well, this thread hasn't been posted in for a long time, but hey, who doesn't love The Jimi Hendrix Experience and a WALL of Sunns?
The Scene, Wisconson, 1968:
(http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/58/5839/IX5SG00Z/posters/jimi-hendrix-bruce-herrick-1968-the-scene-milwaukee-wisconsin.jpg)
(http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/58/5842/759SG00Z/posters/jimi-hendrix-bruce-herrick-1968-the-scene-milwaukee-wisconsin.jpg)