SUNN vs. HIWATT

[jjmoreno]

I have 2 Hiwatt dr-103 heads a 76, and a 78

I recently bought a 1974 Sunn Model T and it isn't as glassy, clean and chimey as the hiwatts. Seems like it has less headroom also. Anyone know the difference between the 6550s and el-34s. Seems to have a rounder clean tone but can't get past 3-4 on the gain and master for clean.

Thinking about buying a hiwatt dr-201 w/ 6550s and an HH IC100s head.
What are the differences in all of these, anyone know?

Bob from eurotubes claims the Sunns have more kickass???

http://myspace.com/jjmethadrone

[EdBass]

I am a Sunn-O-Phile by nature, but also am a huge fan of vintage Hiwatt gear. I was at the Hiwatt convention this past weekend, not a Sunn in sight but Hiwatt amps everywhere. I have extensive experience with both amps, and I think that the amps share many attributes. Compared to the majority of tube instrument amps, both brands are very Hi-Fi, both are very loud, both stay relatively clean at high volume, but they have different tonal characteristics.
Here's how they sound to me;
Hiwatts are usually characterized by the term "Chimey", they have a pleasing but distinctly glassy ring to their tone, and stay clean at volume levels that would have most other tube amps screaming for mercy.
Sunns are generally warmer and richer sounding, a more mid range presence, equally pleasing to the ear but different.
I think the Hiwatts have more headroom watt for watt, but both Sunn and Hiwatt are high headroom amps compared to the masses.

The differences are more in the circuit than the actual tubes, if you take a 6550 out of a Sunn and put it in a Hiwatt, it will still sound like a Hiwatt and vice versa.
By the way, DR201's came/still come with KT88's not 6550's, which ever you use is just a matter of taste.





Since this post on talkbass.com;
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352029&highlight=reeves
I have spent many hours A/B'ing the Reeves Amplification Custom 225 to the vintage Hiwatt DR201 and the Sunn 2000S while doing helping to finalize the Custom 225 circuit for production. The amp started life as a DR201 clone, the final version actually takes some tonal cues from the legendary 2000S.
We brought the amp to the convention to see if it would pass the scrutiny of some of the most knowledgeable Hiwatt heads in existence (even Dave Reeves son Glynn flew in from England for the event) and it passed with flying colors, or maybe colours.
Score one for Sunn, sort of.
Here's some pics from the weekend. The cabinet we used to compare the vintage DR201 to the Reeves is a '73 Hiwatt 2 X 15, kind of their Fane loaded version of the 2000S cab, but this particular one was JBL equipped. Sounded marvelous. And LOUD!

[Sunnmon]

Hi EdBass,
 Thanx for the "Article". I always called it "sparkle" but "chime" works. My handle says it all. I simply love mY 1973 first Gen model T, I owned a 200S, 2000S and still have a Coliseum Bass amp, Coliseum Lead and a Concert bass.
If someone stole My model T I would hunt them down and show them the other end of their penis. I would go to Leo's just to play the only HiWatt200 they had with a Gibson EB1 bass. If you use tubes IMHO nothing beats alot of KT-88's or 6550's. Thas why the 200S is a legend. Would love to hear that same Hiwatt200 thru that large hiwatt 215(wannabe2000Scab)with D\K-140's..I have 6 K-140's in 3 Sunn cabs, a 200s and 2 215s cabs. Have a great day and keep that info coming. I also own an Acoustic 370 and 2 301 W-bins just to punish the audience with bass...HE HE HE.
peace

[Oli]

Hi EdBass,

Compared to the majority of tube instrument amps, both brands are very Hi-Fi, both are very loud, both stay relatively clean at high volume, but they have different tonal characteristics.

Maybe my speakers are not that efficient as the JBL 140 (I use two 410H from SUNN/Fender), but the my Sunn amps tend to be slightly "overdriven", the sound is not clean. Lets say it's saturated. The louder the Sunn gets, the more satuaration U get, it does not stay clean at high volume in any way. I mean, that's what I like about the Sunn amps.....

The Highwatt sound is always - what I heared from my friends amp - clean, it never tends to sound cranked.

So here is the question: When U run a 200S with the matching box, can U go up to Volume 10 (Bass and Treble flat)?


Greetings

Oliver

 

[EdBass]

Hi EdBass,

Compared to the majority of tube instrument amps, both brands are very Hi-Fi, both are very loud, both stay relatively clean at high volume, but they have different tonal characteristics.

Maybe my speakers are not that efficient as the JBL 140 (I use two 410H from SUNN/Fender), but the my Sunn amps tend to be slightly "overdriven", the sound is not clean. Lets say it's saturated. The louder the Sunn gets, the more satuaration U get, it does not stay clean at high volume in any way. I mean, that's what I like about the Sunn amps.....

The Highwatt sound is always - what I heared from my friends amp - clean, it never tends to sound cranked.

So here is the question: When U run a 200S with the matching box, can U go up to Volume 10 (Bass and Treble flat)?


Greetings

Oliver

 

You can go to "10" on a 200S rig, but it will sound pretty distorted. It really depends on the particular amp, I've found that hand wired tube amps have individual characteristics. One 200S may get louder, stay cleaner, have more bass, treble, etc. than another 200S with the same tube compliment, same age, and so on. I'm not suggesting that a 200S doesn't always sound like a 200S, for the most part they all sound very similar, but there are so many "human" variables involved with a hand wired amp that each one will generally have its own nuances.
Personally, that's one of my biggest fascination with old tube amps, and one of my rationalizations for having as many as I do. Each amp has its own "sweet spot"; one 200S sounds better with a Jazz Bass, one sounds real thumpy and tight with a P Bass, a particular 100S flat out rocks on the bridge pickup of a Ric, and so on.

Hiwatts do seem to hold clean higher up the decible scale, but they do indeed break up at high volume. They tend to stay tight on the bottom and keep their characteristic chime all the way though, they don't get as mushy as a lot of other tube amps, Sunn included. Last weekend I was exposed to far too many 50 and 100 watt Hiwatts on "11", pound for pound they may be the loudest/cleanest amps ever made, but they do get a nice thick tube saturation tone at high volumes.
A problem is that in order to get that classic wound up Hiwatt tone you need to be at ear splitting SPL's, which is one of the reasons why the Reeves amps are so popular with Hiwatt aficionados. They build amps true to the Dave Reeves circuit, with the same incredible attention to detail, finest components available, and build quality as the original 70's Hiwatts, but with the ability to attain full power tube saturation at "bedroom" levels.
As most people know, Reeves amps started out by importing and servicing British built Hiwatts. Fernandez owned the Hiwatt name in the US but didn't import the Dave Reeves designed UK built amps, they stuck the Hiwatt badge on inexpensive solid state stuff instead. For several years Reeves was importing the "real deal" from England, just rebadged as "Reeves". Soon the Reeves people started experimenting with fresh ideas and circuits, and now they build (in the US) a wide variety of amps to go along with their Hiwatt clones. One of these ideas is Power Scaling, which works kind of like a master volume, but unlike a master volume which only allows preamp tube saturation, allows full power tube saturation at any level so you can get the raging "Live at Leeds" tone at speaking volume.
Very cool, I think it's magic.

[Oli]

Hi Ed,

i think U are 100% right about the "individual" amp-sound. I mean all divices have a tolerance with different effects, you'll have endless posibilities. I know the ower of musician sound design, he does test out all elctronic components till he gets the sound he was looking for.

To the Highwatt: I just read an article in "gitarre&bass" about Webers "Highwatt clones" called mywatt. U can find them at:  http://www.weber-amps.de. I haven't check it out yet since I'm too happy with my Sunns.

Greetings

Oliver