The sunn Forum
Sunn Musical Equipment => Q & A => Topic started by: fatlizzard on July 16, 2007, 08:30:15 pm
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Check it out!
What appears to be three 2000S heads and three 1000S heads each with two cabinets!
What tone monsters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iqj6XQ65OqU&mode=related&search= (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iqj6XQ65OqU&mode=related&search=)
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Very cool video. I always heard reference to Felix Pappalardi playing 2000S rigs, even heard quotes attributed to him saying he played Noel Redding's 2000S ex-rigs, but I'm pretty sure those are 200S rigs in that video.
And unless the guy in the cowboy hat to Leslie West's left is a young Andre the Giant, and Leslie is 6'5", those aren't 4 output tube amps Leslie is using either. They look like four 4X12 Sceptre cabinets and two 2X15 maybe Spectrum II, or Sentura II cabs?
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That's what it looks like to me, too. Four Sceptre cabinets, two 2x15"s for Mr West (who actually looks a lot like Andre, don't you think?). The 2x15 cabs likely have D130's in them, but who knows? Mr Pappalardi's cabinets are the same size, likely 200S cabinets, though it looks to me as though his amps have too many knobs to be 200S heads. Pretty fuzzy, though.
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Yeah, killer tone. Nice and fuzzed out
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Actually, I meant the video!
Applicable to the sound as well, though.
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Weren't there some 200S's that were made into 2000S's as prototypes? I recall seeing one on Ebay with 4 KT88's and a hugh transformer. I thought I read somewhere that the ones for Noel Redding were the small cabinet type. Wonder if these might be those? Anyone know when this was?
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Weren't there some 200S's that were made into 2000S's as prototypes? I recall seeing one on Ebay with 4 KT88's and a hugh transformer. I thought I read somewhere that the ones for Noel Redding were the small cabinet type. Wonder if these might be those? Anyone know when this was?
Every pic I've seen of Felix Pappalardi or Noel Redding with 2000S rigs were the 30" wide heads.
Also, the video was from 1970 in Cincinnati according to the caption on Utube, years after the 2000S was in full production. I think it would be unlikely that a sponsored act would have anything but the latest gear, unless the manufacturer was still doing R&D and sent prototypes out for some real world torture testing. I would imagine that time frame would be '66 or '67 for the 4 output tube Sunns..
I've seen the 4 output tube Spectrum II posted in this forum;
http://sunn.ampage.org/sdp/index.php/topic,1679.0.html
It might be a hack job, but from the photos I personally think it's an actual factory prototype for a 4 tube head. It makes sense to modify an existing amp, virtually the same circuit as the 2 X KT88 amp, and saves the cost of bending up a one off chassis. It looks like a prototype including the grease pencil notes on the chassis, and the Dynaco A451 output tranny from the Mk VI.
I have reservations about the viability of a touring 4 X KT88 head on the small chassis; more specifically in the small 24" X 9.5" X 9.5" box. I think the heat would be unmanagable without a fan, and there would be little space left in the box for a fan. Also, a fan opens up a new can of circuit design worms, you need to get the DC from somewhere; you sure don't want an induction motor anywhere near that ungrounded chassis.
I wasn't there so this is a guess, but I think the small chassis 4 output tube prototypes were a "let's see how this sounds" project that saw limited or no actual field use.
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Think your right Ed...I do remember reading somewhere..maybe on this forum, Conrad talking about prototyping the 2000S on a 200S chassis.
I know my 200S puts out an amazing amount of heat....4 KT's in the same size would be a might warm.
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Yeah, but they also crammed 4 KT-88's into the small Coliseum PA Heads for a few years too! Too hard to see in that video what Leslie is playing thru.
I DO have Leslie's prototype "Coliseum Model T" Head that was built on a larger 1200S chassis but with what was to later become the Model T control layout, plus a master pot added thru the center of the SUNN logo on the front panel.
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:mrgreen: James Brown used 'em too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VRSAVDlpDI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VRSAVDlpDI)
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The 4xKT88 Spectrum II: Yes, it gets really hot, but after 200+ shows all over the land it's held up incredibly well (mechanically & sound-wise). In fact, I haven't had a problem with it until recently. As mentioned in another thread, I just put in a new set of JJ KT88's & had it rebiased. It's been downhill from there. I'll get it figured out once I get a job. Those tubes weren't cheap!
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Saw Mountain twice in Chicago,Once in 69 at the Kinetic. They were to open for Blood Sweat +Tears who canceled,so they were main act. No one was there . Place was nearly empty! Too bad for everyone who didn't come. For sure at the Kinetic he used these same 24" style heads and cabs,but no way in heck could they have been anything less than the 4 tube amps.Way too loud to be anything less,and as I recall the Kinetic did not mic the intruments. Only band I ever heard there that was louder might have been the MC-5. using all Marshalls,and maybe Canned Heat with stacks of TNTs
Also saw Hendrix and the Soft Machine in 1967 at the Chicago Civic Opera House. Both using
this same configuration of Sunns. They were stacked a bit different ,4 cabs on the floor and 2 more stacked horizontaly on top of those. Again,Way too loud to be 2 tube 200S type amps. I am pretty sure they did not mic these either.
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The difference in volume between a 4 tube head and a 2 tube head is only 3dB. I strongly doubt that you could tell which is which by ear alone.
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Hey Isaac, can you explain once more about the Db thing. I have always heard that a 3Db increase is an apparent doubling of volume. Once you get up into the hundred Db range...twice the apparent volume is a large increase. One of the reasons JBL D series work so well for the 100 series Sunn amps is that they are at least 3Db more efficient than most any other speaker...so they sound much louder. I can tell the difference in volume that going from the 916SPL speakers in my 215 cabinet to a pair of 140's made. Hugh in my ears.
I know there are some major simplifications and very probably some cross connections that aren't completely valid. I seem to recall you wrote a great explanation a few months ago...but I can't find it now. In any case, I would think one could discern the 3DB increase easily. But then again…even at 52…I learn something new most every time I sign onto this site.
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First of all, individuals vary in their ability to detect volume differences. All of us vary in this ability depending on the frequency of the sound.
With that said, in general, one decibel is usually described as the smallest change in volume that can be detected - but since a decibel is a fixed unit, it ignores the frequency dependent nature of our hearing.
When talking about power, a 3db increase represents twice the power of the original reference and a 3db decrease represents one half the power of the original reference. A 10db increase represents ten times the power of the original reference, and a 10db decrease represents one tenth the power of the original reference.
Acoustically, we perceive a 10db difference as either twice or one half a difference in volume. So, if we want to double our perceived volume we need to increase the power output by a factor of 10. A 100 watt output sounds twice as loud as a 10 watt output. To sound twice as loud as the 100 watt output, we would need 1000 watts.
Can you hear a 3db difference? Barely. If you have an amp with 4 output tubes, take out two of them (the two outside tubes to make sure since pairs on the same side of the output transformer are usually arranged this way). Now your amp will produce roughly 1/2 the power - a 3 db decrease in output volume.
It won't be that easy to hear a difference. I have an Acoustic G100T that does this with a half power switch that cuts out two of the output tubes. Operating with four tubes sounds like the bass has been boosted very very slightly over two tube operation.
That's why instead of increasing wattage capacity, it's normally more effective (cost wise) to increase volume by using more efficient speakers. And why I personally avoid high wattage handling in my speakers - with those speakers that handle 300 to 600 watts, the trade off is a loss in efficiency requiring more watts to make up for it to keep the output volume the same. It's kind of like the dog chasing it's tail.
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Hey Isaac, can you explain once more about the Db thing. I have always heard that a 3Db increase is an apparent doubling of volume. Once you get up into the hundred Db range...twice the apparent volume is a large increase. One of the reasons JBL D series work so well for the 100 series Sunn amps is that they are at least 3Db more efficient than most any other speaker...so they sound much louder. I can tell the difference in volume that going from the 916SPL speakers in my 215 cabinet to a pair of 140's made. Hugh in my ears.
I know there are some major simplifications and very probably some cross connections that aren't completely valid. I seem to recall you wrote a great explanation a few months ago...but I can't find it now. In any case, I would think one could discern the 3DB increase easily. But then again…even at 52…I learn something new most every time I sign onto this site.
No, 3dB is a doubling of power. 10dB is an apparent doubling of volume, but it's also a decade increase in power: 10 times as much. 3dB was determined as a noticeable change in volume. More recent research shows that we can perceive differences as small as 0.1dB, using identical test signals, but it's perceived only as a difference, not as a difference in volume. interestingly, louder is usually perceived as better. That's why lots of stereo stores will kick up the volume on cheap, high-margin components. Being slightly louder, they're perceived as sounding better, and the store makes more money.
So yeah, an aparent doubling of volume really is a big deal, and can be hard to accomplish when the levels are already high. Ten times the power causes all sorts of potential problems, from power compression in the drivers to cllipping amps to burning out components. It was really tough in the old days, when 60 watts was quite a bit of power, and about all most drivers could handle.
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I once pulled two of the power tubes on my Model T, hoping to be able to crank it up for power tube distortion at relatively low levels. Couldn't really hear any difference at all. Hard to A-B, though, and I was looking for a big difference, not a subtle one.
I was disappointed, but, hey, I was young. I got over it.
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First of all, individuals vary in their ability to detect volume differences. All of us vary in this ability depending on the frequency of the sound.
- but since a decibel is a fixed unit, it ignores the frequency dependent nature of our hearing.
+1
And that, IMO, is the most important factor to remember. It's easy to get caught up in specs, but the human ear is NOT an oscilloscope, and the ear is what determines good from bad sound/tone etc.
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So how come I am never satisfied with the way my rig sounds?
Oh yeah...because I'm older now and can afford to keep playing with different stuff...G.A.S. and it is. Someday I too will have a Wall of Sunn ...... and probably still not be satisfied with the tone. I got enough volume as it is....for these old ears. But tone...that ever elusive tone....maybe a new guitar.......maybe if I just could get my hands on a......or what if.....