The sunn Forum
Sunn Musical Equipment => Q & A => Topic started by: Jeff Troy on September 12, 2011, 08:35:54 am
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Hi, Guys,
Just picked up a nice silver Concert Bass head, no speaker enclosure, and wondered what were the correct bass cabinets that match the width of the head.
Once I know the correct piece(s), I can either find-and-buy or build one of them, but I'd like to know which enclosures are correct.
I got several choices from the catalog thread, but didn't see anything that was Concert Bass-specific.
Thanks and warmest regards,
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Make sure the speakers are connected to give a MINIMUM of four ohms to your concert amp.
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Jeff, there is no "correct" speaker cabinet. In those days, Sunn had a "mix and match" philosophy. The idea was to buy an amp, then get the speaker cabinet that best suited the sound you were looking for. A player might have used a single 115S, for portability, with perhaps a second 115S for larger gigs. Another person might prefer the 215S. Folded horns were popular in those days, so a 118MH or 215SH might be used instead. Some people might even have chosen a 412S, 612S or 415S.
If that looks like gibberish to you, here's how to decode it. The first digit is the number of drivers in the cabinet. The second two digits are the size of the drivers. The first letter is the type of driver: S for Sunn Transducer, M for Sunn Magna, and V for Cerwin Vega. The H designates a horn loaded cabinet.
Now, all that said, the most common choice was probably the 215S. It also was the same width as the amp, which is not true for all of the cabinets I mentioned.
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Hi, Isaac and George,
Thank you for your responses.
I have a couple of 215 and 410S cabs, a 415M, 115, and several others.
(http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk235/jefftroyimages/11StudioRIGHTAlesisDM5DrumKitMarshallStackweb.jpg)
I don't have, and never have had any kind of an 18-inch speaker setup, so I'm thinking that one of the 118 enclosures might be fun to try.
The 115 I have is a converted PA cabinet with the cutout for the horn covered over in the baffle. Are the 118 cabinets basically the same? I'd prefer to build the rear-loaded version so I don't have to mess with a separate grille frame.
Can anyone make a hand drawing of the innards so I know how to attack the port(s)?
Thanks in advance, and warmest regards,
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FWIW, Jeff, I preferred the sound of my Concert Bass with the 215SH and 118BH. With the 215 and 415 it just didn't have anywhere near the fullness of a tube amp sound but the folded horn cabinets made up for it.
Glad to hear you have more Sunn gear! You're an inspiration to us all.
:-D
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My vote is for the 215SH, but I might just be a bit biased.
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Some people might even have chosen a 412S, 612S or 415S.
If that looks like gibberish to you, here's how to decode it. The first digit is the number of drivers in the cabinet. The second two digits are the size of the drivers.
Man, I'd totally rock a 61X2
:evil:
I kid, I kid
:-D
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Hello Jeff,
These are not mine but here are a couple of pics.
Johnny G.
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Hey Johnnie O,
How ya' doin'?
On the right hand side of the image I posted, that pair of 412SR enclosures and the two Concert Horn Accessory pieces on top of them are what I did with the pieces I bought from you. The innards for the horns are the same, but I built two wooden cases to match the pair I had.
Thanks for the 118 pics. Are they the same cabinets with one port area painted, or are they the two different pieces I saw in the 1975 list? If they are different, do you know which is which?
With the outer dimensions that are listed, I'm pretty sure I can build a pretty accurate cabinet from the drawings you sent. Just want to be sure that I'm going in the right direction. Thanks again for your help, now and before.
Warmest regards,
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At a glance, the first 118 pic appears to be a 118M, and the second is definitely a 118V.
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Thanks, Isaac,
According to the 1975 information in the Catalog Thread, the M is 30 inches wide. The 118V appears to be the same, but I didn't see it in the listings. Does anyone have a drawing or an image of the 118MH, which is stated to be 24 inches wide and 26 inches deep? That one sounds like what I'd like most for the Concert head.
Thanks again and warmest regards,
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You could name the rig "Thumper".
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Here's another one.
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Yes, the 118V is also 30"x30". The only difference between it and the 118M is the driver.
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Hello Jeff,
Yeah I did notice the 412 SR's and Concert Horns, they look great! I don't know anything about the 118 cabs. I collect pictures of the different SUNN amps & cabs when I see them on the site or Ebay. I didn't have much on the 118 cabs for some reason. Hope you find what you need.
Johnny G.
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Hi, Johnny, Ed and Isaac,
The 412 cabs and horns came out great, and perfectly match the set I already had. That makes four of each, and they should sound really nice with any of my Sunn mixers and slaves. I recently picked up a Coliseum Audio Controller, just like the one I had in the mid-70s.
Thanks to all three of you for those excellent images and helpful information, but man, I'm in a real dilemma now. The BH description indicates SR (sound reinforcement) usage, and the 26-inch width and curved baffle seem to back that up -- kinda like the four 115SR cabinets that came with my Coliseum PA back in the 1970s. The other two 18-inch cabinets are 30 inches wide, so the 24-inch Concert head won't ever look right to me on top of them. I think the 18-inch speaker thing is a gonner, and probably not the sound I'd be looking for with my Armstrong anyway. I like that angry Pappalardi/Bruce rasp with a big sustain, and I think the 18 might be too boomy.
That leaves me with a 115 for portability or a 215 for bigger sound. Right now, I'm leaning toward the 115, but I'd like to have a drawing or picture of the 115 that Sunn used for bass.
Anyone have a drawing or image?
The 215 cabinet I have is a Sorado, and I'm sure that the 200S cabinet is superior. The Sunn Transducers I have in the Sorado enclosure are old and farty, and I'd sooner replace them with Eminence than have a pair of mediocre speakers reconed. I also think that the rear-loaded 115 I have was a PA enclosure that I modified by making a new baffle without the cutout for the horn. I'm guessing that the bass enclosure is not quite as tall by a few inches, and would almost certainly have a different baffle or port arrangement.
In the meantime, I'll try the Concert head with the 115 and 215 cabinets that I have, but I think I still have absolutely no idea what to think!
Another thought is a 412 cabinet. I've played the Armstrong through my 1974 Twin Reverb in small venues. That amp has JBL 12s, and the bass sounds excellent through it. Maybe a Sunn 412 would be a good thing, but I have to remember that the Twin is a tube amp, and probably a lot warmer than the Concert. Six- and 10-inch speakers just don't sound appealing for bass, although I guess I could try the Armstrong through the Concert and one of the 410S cabinets I fabricated for my Sentura II head.
412, 115, 215 -- Like I said, I'm in a dilemma. Any input from you guys with firsthand experience?
I hate to be pain in the arse, buy thanks again in advance,
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I wouldn’t let the fact that that the BH and MH were designated SR put me off, Jeff. The issue is the natural roll off of high frequencies caused by the horn configuration. I’m not familiar enough with them to specify at what frequency that attenuation will begin, but at some point the high end will stop making that corner and become reflective to some degree, and higher than that they just won’t get out of that “maze” at all.
Hence my earlier “thumper” comment.
Not that it’s necessarily a bad thing, many players have successfully used folded horns for bass for many years, it’s whether or not that is what you are looking for.
Cabs wider than heads never bothered me personally; the “T” looks of the other way around drives me crazy though. Those vented 118’s would be a different animal than the BH/MH cab. When you can see the cone you are getting the full range that the driver offers, and the high end “snap” is pretty much determined by which driver you use. A lot of 18’s will respond very similarly to 15’s (just move more air), and while “boomy” can happen if there is an issue with the enclosure/driver matchup, it isn’t limited to 18’s. Any speaker can get boomy, and IMO you aren’t any more likely to have an issue with an 18 over a 15. In fact, IMO speaker size generally takes a back seat to things like xmax vs. total cone area, total cone mass and rigidity, etc but there is a reason for the “stereotypes” associated with different driver sizes; smaller speakers are generally more high frequency sensitive and big speaker almost always pump more air.
Keep in mind the term “enclosure”. Everything that contains the driver is an enclosure, such as the room it’s in, and a lot of “boomy” issues are actually room induced. Big flat parallel walls can induce standing waves which will create pockets of eye ball rattling boominess alternating with pockets of almost zero bottom end response. You can actually move from one extreme to the other and feel the phenomenon. Pretty trippy!
The 115 (and their “big brother” 215) cabs that I’m familiar with are the Sonic I40 and the 115S,M,V. I have a Sonic I40 cab;
(http://i626.photobucket.com/albums/tt341/EdBass/DSC00063-1.jpg)
I don’t have any pics of the cab opened. They look the same, but like the difference between a 200S and 215S,M,V cabs the Sonic I40 is rear loaded, fixed grill, and is basically half of a 200S cab. I know CLD has a 115V cab, maybe he can post a “naked” pick of it for comparison, but it essentially half of a 215S,M,V cab.
I think the 115S,M,V cabs are a lot more practical and flexible, they front load, will accept about any 15” driver you want to put in and sound real good doing it, while the Sonic I40 shares the port ducting restrictions of the 200S cab which limits its overall utility.
Can’t share much about the 412 concept, the only Sunn 412 I have “hands on” with is the Sceptre, and I’ve had zero luck with that one as a bass cab.
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Hi, Ed,
Thanks again. Great response as usual. I'll be mulling all that over for awhile I'm sure.
BTW, if you send an address in a pm or to jefftroy@aol.com, , I'll send you some of those black, #4 flat-head Phillips screws you need for the Sunn badge on your 115. The bright screws are scary.
Warmest regards,
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Here is a "naked" look at the 115V. It's a great cabinet although more often I use my 115RH (with an E-140) for lower-volume situations where I still want a nice full sound.
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BTW, if you send an address in a pm or to jefftroy@aol.com, , I'll send you some of those black, #4 flat-head Phillips screws you need for the Sunn badge on your 115. The bright screws are scary.
Those are actually the bottom screw holes that are reflecting in the picture, they are empty. The top two have charcoal gray anodized pan heads. I'll get around to fixing it some day... :wink:
Thanks for the offer, but the shipping would probably be almost as much as a set of 4 screws! :-D
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Hi, CLD,
Thanks, ace. That looks like a probable prospect.
Ed, I wouldn't worry about the postage. I'll wrap a dozen in a paper towel and stick 'em in an envelope. Even a broke as* like me can deal with 44 cents. Let me know if you want them.
This site is a true blessing. Thanks to everyone.
Warmest...
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Hello Jeff,
Here are a couple of pics of different cabs.
Johnny G.
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On the subject of 15 cabs, does anyone have any pictures of the Sunn 2x15 with the angled baffle? It was the size of a 1x15, with the angled baffle like those 6x12 cabs had. I saw one at an estate sale a few months ago, but I couldn't afford to grab it on top of the 100s I bought. :-D
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On the subject of 15 cabs, does anyone have any pictures of the Sunn 2x15 with the angled baffle? It was the size of a 1x15, with the angled baffle like those 6x12 cabs had. I saw one at an estate sale a few months ago, but I couldn't afford to grab it on top of the 100s I bought. :-D
The only angled baffle 215 I've seen is like a 215B; side ported and the whole baffle angled towards the ported side. I've never heard of a "V" baffled 215 the size of a 115 cab, but it sounds interesting!
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On the subject of 15 cabs, does anyone have any pictures of the Sunn 2x15 with the angled baffle? It was the size of a 1x15, with the angled baffle like those 6x12 cabs had. I saw one at an estate sale a few months ago, but I couldn't afford to grab it on top of the 100s I bought. :-D
The only angled baffle 215 I've seen is like a 215B; side ported and the whole baffle angled towards the ported side. I've never heard of a "V" baffled 215 the size of a 115 cab, but it sounds interesting!
It was really neat looking. At first glance I assumed it was a 1x15. I asked if I could take off the grill to lurk the speaker and was surprised (and thrilled) to see 2, with the v baffle. The more I think about it, the more I want it... I've gotta dig up some emails...
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It was really neat looking. At first glance I assumed it was a 1x15. I asked if I could take off the grill to lurk the speaker and was surprised (and thrilled) to see 2, with the v baffle. The more I think about it, the more I want it... I've gotta dig up some emails...
Do you see any description in the catalog thread that seems as if it could be the cab in question?
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Only thing I can think of with a 15 and "V" baffle is the 115SR. Was there a 2x15 version of that?
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No info in the catalog thread. I lurked the 115sr. It was about that size, just with the "v" baffle and 2 x15s. I emailed the guy and he may still have it! He's calling me tomorrow after he checks. Fingers crossed!
This is were the estate sale was. Prepare to drool. I did.
http://a.blip.tv/guitar-shop-tv/brent-ware-vintage-amp-collection-4992553 (http://a.blip.tv/guitar-shop-tv/brent-ware-vintage-amp-collection-4992553)
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Hey, Johnny,
Thanks for the post, but no pics are attached. Can you please resend?
Thanks and warmest...
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The guy got back to me, the cab sold. :cry:
At the time, I didn't know it was a rarity, I just figured I'd never seen one before, but if you guys haven't heard of them, there's probably just a few around.
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No info in the catalog thread. I lurked the 115sr. It was about that size, just with the "v" baffle and 2 x15s. I emailed the guy and he may still have it! He's calling me tomorrow after he checks. Fingers crossed!
This is were the estate sale was. Prepare to drool. I did.
http://a.blip.tv/guitar-shop-tv/brent-ware-vintage-amp-collection-4992553 (http://a.blip.tv/guitar-shop-tv/brent-ware-vintage-amp-collection-4992553)
I'm still not sure what you're talking about. The 115SR had one 15", in a front loaded horn with a port. The baffle, forming the horn, wasn't exactly a V. The sides were curved to form an exponential horn flare. It was similar to, but smaller than, a JBL design that was quite popular back in the day.
Ah, this is it: the JBL 4560.
(http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Site_Images/JBL4560.jpg)
And here is the Sunn 115SR:
(http://sunn.ampage.org/site/museum/misc/115sr.jpg)
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I had four of those 115SR cabinets with two Coliseum Large Radial Horns with my Sunn Coliseum PA back in 1975. Awesome sound system in its day. I had a Coliseum Audio Control (8 ch) mixer, a Coliseum slave for the cabinets, one concert slave for the horns and another concert slave for the four monitor cabinets -- two small guys with a 12 in each cab as monitors for the drummer and B3 guy, and two 410SR cabs the we used for side monitors to shoot down the front line. All of it came from Metro Music in Atlanta, along with some other Sunn gear, a Wurlitzer electronic piano and a good size wall of Fender amps.
Sure would love to find some of those 115SRs for "cheap," but I already have more gear than I'll ever need - really!
Warmest...
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The cab I saw was essentially one of the 4x15 cabs with the v baffle cut in half. A 2x15 in a box the size of a 1x15.
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Okay, that makes sense, and fits your description. But did Sunn ever actually make anything like that, or is it, in fact, a 415 cut in half? People do things like that, sometimes.
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Hello Jeff,
The cab you bought is a Studio PA cab, minus the Horn. I have 2 with original JBL components and they sound great. You probably noticed they have Speaker Stand Mounts on the bottom of the cab. That was probably a "First" for a Factory Cab. Here are some pics & info. The pic of the Studio PA cab is not mine and shows a rare "West" replacement speaker in the cab and is missing the Pole Mount. "West" was another hand built Dynaco / Sunn based amplifier made by Dave West after inspecting an early Sunn amp. Check out his web site at " westlabs.com" I have an early West "Grande" that is similar to a 200S.
Johnny G.
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Cool!
I have 2 Studio PA cabs along with matching head, and have never bothered to peek inside.
I use the rig with guitar and it sounds great. The cabs are really nice sounding.