Author Topic: Cost Advice ( Aaron Edge if you are reading this, help)  (Read 9499 times)

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Offline stanner

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Re: Cost Advice ( Aaron Edge if you are reading this, help)
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2006, 06:16:32 pm »
are those yers cromag?
mightee impressive if it is...
if not...who?
s
AMPSSOUNDBETTERLOUDER

rick.heil

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Re: Cost Advice ( Aaron Edge if you are reading this, help)
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2006, 09:30:07 pm »
whoa, cromag.....that is some SERIOUS sunn-age!  wicked cool!

Offline thefelonwind

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Re: Cost Advice ( Aaron Edge if you are reading this, help)
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2006, 10:43:45 pm »
Cromag, do you post on the Stoner Rock forums? I think I have seen that rig on there as well.

Offline n!k

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Re: Cost Advice ( Aaron Edge if you are reading this, help)
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2006, 01:03:59 am »
Man that is one impressive set of amps, Cromag.

Thanks for the pic. It's smaller than an Ampeg 8x10 (compared to the Orange stack). That's all I needed to see.
My Sunn Amp:
1971 "Coliseum" Model T (Prototype, Made in Portland)

Offline EdBass

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Re: Cost Advice ( Aaron Edge if you are reading this, help)
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2006, 09:42:36 am »

The actual amount of "tuning" of a cabinet built for musical instrument use falls somewhere between slim and none and usually closer to the latter.

I don't know about the current models, but the original SVT's claim to fame was the 8-10" speakers, every two sharing a totally sealed sub enclosure.  This drastically reduced it's ability to reproduce the lowest octave of a bass, with a response that falls off drastically below 100hz. It is this reduction of bass that gives it it's legendary "tight bass" tone - the fundamental frequency is reduced and the second and third harmonics are emphasized.

Reduced bass has many benefits for the band stand - the sound is clearer without a lot of bass to muddy the waters and/or vibrating everything in reach.  Chordal work on a bass really comes through with harmonic emphasis.

I agree that the art of cabinet tuning was pretty much driven by cost effectiveness and size practicality over actual response parameters, but in the last few years (particularly with the "boutique" builders), cabinet tuning has been given more serious consideration. Too much consideration IMO, if you read my posts you will see that I'm very old school when it comes to my tone preferences. I'm fortunate enough to have the wherewithall to indulge my "equipment addiction" with anything that catches my fancy, but I usually find myself dragging out the old tube stuff when I play.
With hi-fi sound reproduction faithfully reproducing recorded or live music is the name of the game, with musical instruments I think it's the variances from this perfection that give the instrument it's character (tone), and these variances traditionally come from statements in the R&D stage like; "Yeah, that looks about right" rather than "But it's -9 db at 110hz!" Most audiophiles would look at the respose curve of a great sounding 4X12 guitar cab and think you had lost your mind!
The new SVT and old SVT 8X10's are the same spec, but the new ones don't have the old stiff as a board CTS 10's. The newer ones are pretty the same, slightly lower resonance (must be the new drivers), and as you mentioned the old CTS loaded cabs drop off hard at about 110hz, and are pretty much altogether done at 55hz. This works good for a bass guitar live, keeps the bottom tight and focused, nice "chunk, chuck, chunk" but guitar needs a cab with a lower resonance rolloff to sound full and chunky. Weird huh?
Of course this isn't to say that low end resonance doesn't have a place in bass guitar land.
Different register, different cab for the application. I didn't mean to sound like I was inferring that a bass cab needed to be tuned for lower frequency reproduction than a guitar cab, I just meant they are *usually different.

*Usually; I have fairly extensive experience with British valve bass rigs using all purpose 4X12 cabs, but that's for another long and arduous post.

Offline cromag

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Re: Cost Advice ( Aaron Edge if you are reading this, help)
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2006, 03:30:37 pm »
yes, i will humbly admit to owning all of those.

rick.heil

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Re: Cost Advice ( Aaron Edge if you are reading this, help)
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2006, 04:10:27 pm »
humbly?!!? hell, rub it in people's faces! (just not ours).

Offline Isaac

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Re: Cost Advice ( Aaron Edge if you are reading this, help)
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2006, 11:48:46 am »
The guitar cabs for guitar / bass cabs for bass comment is dead on, but I wasn't going to use guitar cabinets. The Sunn 612 is a sealed cab (which I would install it) with bass drivers. The Marshall VBC412 is a sealed BASS Cab with bass drivers. If I made a custom cab it would be designed for bass with bass drivers. Don't see where the confusion came up but I'm sure it was there somewhere.
The drivers used in the Sunn 612 cabinets were exactly the same drivers used in their other 12" guitar cabinets, AFAIK. I don't know where you got the idea that they were bass drivers.

AS far as the cabinets go, the original Sunn cabinets with six 12"s had plenty of volume (I mean that in a spatial sense, not amplitude of sound) so they'd probably be fine with bass 12"s installed. However, they're very rare. More common is the 612S, with the drivers mounted on angled baffle boards. There's very little volume inside the cabinet, so very little bass would be produced, regardless of the drivers used.
Isaac

Offline n!k

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Re: Cost Advice ( Aaron Edge if you are reading this, help)
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2006, 11:50:56 pm »
Everyone confuses what I say here. I should be less confusing.

We'll see, Isaac. I think I have the tools to make it into a great bass cabinet. It's dimensions aren't that very
far off from an Ampeg 6x10 cabinet so I don't know how much volume you actually need to get some deep lows. I suppose
I could always dampen the inside of the cab with some foamy stuff or something.
My Sunn Amp:
1971 "Coliseum" Model T (Prototype, Made in Portland)

Offline Isaac

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Re: Cost Advice ( Aaron Edge if you are reading this, help)
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2006, 06:49:02 pm »
How much cabinet volume you need for deep lows depends on the drivers used, how many are used, and what you mean by deep lows. Most people seem to think that a big hump in the response at 80 or 100 Hz constitutes low bass. Quite a few people have never heard what really deep bass sounds like. Even bass players.

There's an acoustical rule of thumb called Hoffman's Iron Law. In bass production, you can have deep response, a compact cabinet, or an efficient cabinet. Increasing any one requires decreasing one or both of the others. There's no getting around it. Fortunately for us bass players, our instruments don't really go down all that low. 41 Hz for a four-string bass, and, since the second harmonic is more prominent than the fundamental, 82 Hz is all we really, really need, so that 80-100 Hz hump works out well. As JoeArthur pointed out above, even 110 Hz can work well.

So, don't think I'm saying it isn't going to work. It might work out very well for you. I'm not so sure it would work out well for me.
Isaac

Offline n!k

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Re: Cost Advice ( Aaron Edge if you are reading this, help)
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2006, 09:48:23 pm »
I didn't mean to imply you were hostile or something about it. If so, I apologize.

In the fuutre I imagine suplimenting a 1x18 with it would help the fundimentals.
My Sunn Amp:
1971 "Coliseum" Model T (Prototype, Made in Portland)

Offline Isaac

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Re: Cost Advice ( Aaron Edge if you are reading this, help)
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2006, 06:58:14 pm »
No, I just try to be complete, and sometimes people misunderstand me. We're cool, as far as I'm concerned.

I also sometimes make jokes with a completely straight face, and they misunderstand that, too! But that's not the case here.

Yes, a properly designed 18" would do the fundamentals really well, I'm thinking.
Isaac