sunn 2x15 speaker question

[jspake]

hi everyone, i just joined so i'm new to the sunn world. thanks for your patience!

i just picked up a 1969 2x15 bass cabinet that looked like it was in great shape. i payed $275 for it at a pawn shop here in portland, or. i have just started to play bass in a band so i am trying to put a rig together. i hope to be running a traynor yba-3 into this cab very soon, but right now i'm using an old 120 watt orange overdrive model. i was using this amp through a borrowed cab and playing with the master volume all the way up and the gain at about 9 o'clock and getting enough volume and clarity to compete with 2 jmp full stacks. when i hooked up the sunn cab and played at the same volume and got some pretty terrible flapping and popping noises. i decided to look into it. i took the back off to find 2 16 ohm jbl d 140f speakers. in between the speakers is a horizontal slot with angled panels. also, the interior baffle was signed in pencil by 2 guys and dated august 19, 1969 followed by a peace sign! nice touch, i thought. i took the speakers out and they look flawless. i don't know much about speakers, so to my untrained eye there were no apparent indications that the speakers were blown. nothing torn, or separated. i thought the noise may have been from a loose screw, but this does not seem to the case as i re-installed the speakers and tightened everything. i finally figured out that i could remove the front grille with a little care and elbow grease, so i removed that to observe the speakers in use. when played at a reasonable volume there was a great deal of action front to back on the cone and it was definitely making some bad sounds, but i don't know enough to know what is wrong. (i was playing with the back off during this testing phase, if that makes a difference) so, i dunno, what constitutes a "blown" speaker? my research tells me that these speakers were the highest rated speakers of the jbl 140/130 15's that were offered with these cabs (is this the cab that is paired with the 2000s?) so should this be happening?

my questions:
1) how do i know what model cab this is?
2) are these speakers as bad-off as they seem? what is actually wrong with them/ what happened to them? (may be a really stupid question)
3) are they worth saving? i've seen single d140f speakers selling for the price i payed for the cab... that seems a bit puffed up. is there a reasonably economic solution in reconditioning these or replacing them with something comparable or (heavens to betsy?!) even better than these jbls?

i have 30 days to decide what to do about this. they will apparently give me a full refund if i don't like it. i'd really like to keep it, but i don't see spending another 600 bucks to do so. i would really appreciate any help, advice, comments, or heckling that you guys could offer. thanks!

-jeremy

[mckinnon audio]

  Hi there Jeremy, measure the cab.,if it's 48" tall then it's a 2000S cab.I think the 200S cab. is 42",you can find the specs. here under the catalogue/brochure heading.
  Your JBL's are prob. worn out,over excurted,etc.If you're playing high volume rock with a 5 str.,they aren't going to last very long I'm afraid.Reconing is pricey but worth it for the tone. Check this forum and you'll see lots of discussion for and against this.Hope this was of some help,Mel.

[george]

Not sure if your description of the speakers is a rubbing issue or a damaged suspension. Can you work the cone of the driver (symmetric force applied) and hear any rubbing? If you have access to a signal generator (Sound Forge, etc) you can run the driver in the cabinet or free air and see what happens with a sine wave between 20-1000 Hz.

I am currently trying to get a JBL K140 reconned at Weber http://www.tedweber.com/ VERY slow going for $99. I believe this is considered a good deal (assuming he actually gets it done). Reconing a JBL with original parts is over $200 now. If the voice coil has been over heated - and is now rubbing - you will need a reconer who can de-magnetize the driver and try and get all the crap out of the (radial) voice coil gap - good luck with that.

My $.02 would b to have a good speaker guy check out your JBL's and if they have been over heated and need reconing I would either return the cab for a refund or sell the JBL's on ebay and buy new drivers. I hear more and more people complaining about the cost of gas these days and schlepping around a cabinet the size of a small frig may be an issue for your wallet and/or your back (i.e. spinal column).

[jspake]

thanks guys. some very good info there. i guess these jbls are just worn out. damaged suspension sounds like what is happening. the bad stuff looks like its coming from the outer ring that attaches to the cone. i'm not using a 5 string, but i am tuned down a full step with the low E dropped to another step. are you telling me that any speakers i use are going to get worn out if i'm playing that low? i don't have a tone generator, so i can't do that test. i am going to head over and measure that cab shortly. at least i'll be able to tell the guys at the pawn shop "this thing is supposed to handle a lot of power" if it is the 2000s cab. i saw somewhere that the weber neo 15 is supposed to be an excellent replacement for these speakers. they are a bit pricey, though. can anyone vouch for these, or any other speakers to replace these if i decide to keep the cap. i think i am going to go down to the shop and tell them i'd like to bring it back, unless they'd like to give me a partial refund since the thing is pretty much blown. would this cab be worth a hundred bucks even if the speakers are dead?

[Soundmasterg]

If that is a 2000S cabinet I might be interested in it. I'm in the Portland area myself. I also have some good vintage JBL D140F's if you were looking to get something workable with the cabinet. You can also get yours reconed. Ted Weber seems to do a good job though he is slower than some. I've heard good things about his Neo series of speakers too. You can get them reconed locally at Jmac on sandy blvd, but he doesn't use vintage correct cones unless you supply him with them, and he also does not demagnetize, clean, and remagnetize like Weber does.

What head are you using that with? The cabinets don't do a ton of power with the D140F's and are easy to blow if too much power is applied to them.

Send me a PM if you're interested in my speakers, in selling me the cabinet, or just want info, and I can give you my number.

Greg

[basiklybass]

You might want to check the surrounds very carefully. Many times there is a tear or break along the outer edge that cannot be seen unless one carefully checks all around the cone to surround junction. As far as pressing on the cone to see if it is rubbing, most JBL D series do not pass this test even if they are fine. The tolerances of the gap was what made these such great speakers and almost any deformation caused by pressing on the cone will slightly bend the coil enough so that it will rub. As far as de and re-magnetizing an alnico magnet, many feel that any speaker 30 years old needs this done. Others do not agree. Ceramic magnets do not lose their power over time or by heat. they will lose it while hot but once cooled are generally the same as when first made. While heat can cause a loss of gap gauss, the amount needed for an alnico magnet would probably melt and burn out the coil so the speaker would not work at all. As always, there are exceptions to any rule such as these.

The advice to try a tone generator is a good one. Download a generator online then burn a CD and play it into your amp with a portable player. Start with the player volume at the minimum and the amp on 2 or 3, slowly raise the player volume until you get sound, adjust for the best sound. The impedances are not matched and if you use the earphone output, the signal will not be right but at a low volume it will work. A blown speaker will have a sound that emanates from the center or edges (if torn) while overdriving the amps input sounds like a fuzz box. The sound will come from all parts of the cone.

D140F's are well worth reconing. JBL has not made recone kits for any of the D, K, or E series in several years. The prices are going up because the only ones left are what a reconer has in stock...and I would bet they are becoming very scarce. Several manufacturers are making very good replacement parts these days. There is some crap out there too. I might suggest an Eminence Kappa as a replacement also. I have reconed several recently and like the way they sound. I haven't tried them in my Sunn 215 but if you have the power, they are nice speakers and reasonably prices IMHO.

[jspake]

Soundmasterg:
i still need to check on the height. it did strike me as being quite tall. i did go to the pawn shop and i got 175 refunded, so i guess i decided to keep the cab and just get new speakers, or deal with the ones i've got. i figure its in good enough shape to be worth a hundred dollars. its pretty sexy. right now i don't have "the head" for it yet so i'm using my 120 watt orange or a borrowed sunn concert lead. i'm working on getting a traynor yba-3 for it and hope to have that deal worked out soon. either way its not like i'm running an svt into it so it seems perfectly acceptable to run a 120-160 watt amp into this with good speakers and not have them killed. am i wrong?

basiklybass:
i'll take a closer look at the speakers. i did a decently thorough exam, but didn't really know what to look for, or where. thanks for the debate info. so many decisions to make! those kappas are pretty cheap. zzounds has it for 99 bucks with free shipping. hmmm. first things, first, i'll try to find a tone generator and run that test.

thanks!

-jeremy

[Soundmasterg]

Jeremy,

You should be fine using those heads into it.....the 2000S was a 120 watt or 150 watt head depending on the use of a tube or solid state rectifier. The 2000S setup was to use two of the 2x15 cabinets. Ted Weber rates the D 140F's at like 60 watts each, though most rate them a bit higher. I'd make sure to be careful at higher volumes myself.

Greg

[jspake]

so, i measured the cab and it is 48 inches tall, not including the casters, so that makes it a 2000s cab? okay, i feel like i'm getting somewhere. finally. so i'm getting my options together on my speaker options and i really don't know what to do or what the criteria for my decision are. they are:

1) recone by weber (pro) faithful recone/ pretty cheap-$99 apiece/ preserve original speakers. (con) takes forever/ maybe not a big deal about demagnetizing? also, the suggestion was made that these speakers may be a tad on the weak side for LOUD detuned relentless rock and roll.

2) recone locally by well recommended guy at ja mac. (pro) only $75 apiece/ 1 week turnaround, preserve original speakers/ good reputation but- (con) non original recone, although he claims it is totally legit/ still may be a tad on the weak side for LOUD detuned relentless rock and roll.

3) replace speakers with vintage WORKING jbl d140fs (pro) keeps cab stock (con) potentially very costly/ may put me back at the same place i am now if the speakers because of the relentless rocking and rolling.

4) weber neo 15 which is supposed to be a faithful replacement for the d140f. (pro) again, supposedly faithful/ lightweight (con) more expensive (although i think i can get these for about the same cost as the kappas below)/ no 16 ohm offered

5) eminence kappa (was recommended here) or other good replacement (pro) could actually improve on the sound of the original cab?/ potentially a bit cheaper than other replacement options?/ good possibility of increasing the ability of the cab to handle all of that relentless rock and roll (cons) kind of a crap shoot, many options available

man, what to do???

-jeremy

[EdBass]

You can probably find E140 recone kits, that would be an option. That would increase the power handling above the original D series.
Or, just keep the JBL's out and get a higher powered replacement. Eminence makes nice drivers, but there are a lot of nice 15" drivers out there for bass. I've had a lot of success with EV's, specifically with EVM's and SRO's. They sound excellent, are plentiful, not too expensive, built like a tank, and will really take a pounding.
I have a Sunn 215S cab with EVM15L's in it that I primarily use with a Reeves Custom 225. I use it for gigs, but it also gets beat on at guitar shows and in live demonstrations regularly, sometimes with the Reeves wide open (236 watts at the 8 ohm tap), and the EV's take it all in stride.

Or I have a better idea; quit agonizing over your decision and just ship your cab to me. I know exactly what to do with it, and it will have a good home with a whole bunch of its Sunn siblings. I'll even pay the shipping! 

[basiklybass]

1) Weber is not using original JBL parts for his recone at $99.00, use the local guy if you trust the recommender.

2) E140 original recone kits are going for upwards of $200.00....not installed.....if you can find them. MWA is making some very nice coils, hard to tell the difference on examination.

3) EVM's are very nice but in my ear do not have the bottom the JBL's have. One can always adjust the EQ. I prefer the B's to the L's but I also use a 8" JBL 2118 for the high end so I want the 15's to give me the bottom. I also like the DL's, they have a longer excursion because of a magnet extension.

4) Eminences are nice, I see a lot of them blown. Don't know if it is because there are so many out there, they take a lot of power...but not as much as many folks are giving them...don't know. I do like the Kappa Pro, it is a very well made and designed speaker. And made in America too!

[RxJxVx]

i got three JBL D140Fs that i really cant use and if someone wants 'em PM me and maybe we can work something out.  these things are ANCIENT, and all three work, but are not suitable for my use.  may need a recone, but if you're playing a real clean guitar (steel guitar, for example) they will probably sound good for decades to come. lemme know if yer interested.  THANKS.