Author Topic: B+ lower voltage in the 40 watt amps  (Read 2585 times)

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Offline MusicFox

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B+ lower voltage in the 40 watt amps
« on: July 19, 2009, 12:26:06 am »
I have noticed that the schematics for 40 watt (like my Solarus) and similar 60 watt amp types show a difference of 30 volts at the first filter cap. Transformer differences I guess. 470 volts was the original voltage shown at first filter. The 60 watter's being higher @ 500+ volts.

I would like to know what voltage readings people are getting for the "40 watt amps" with modern wall voltages. Or maybe there's math that can solve it? I Know everybody is all over the place about 560 volts or so...... but after a lot of reading I think they are talking about the 60 watt amps. There must be a difference then if the original schematics show a difference. Just thinking of using a 550 volt, 600 surge cap can in a 40 WATT amp is all. I found one reference to the 40 watter's maybe being OK with a new cap can @525 volt but certainly  not the "Heavy's"  I already know going with higher voltage options on caps are recommended. Hopefully someone will clarify readings.

« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 01:57:21 am by MusicFox »
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Offline MusicFox

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Re: B+ lower voltage in the 40 watt amps
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2009, 01:50:40 am »
60 watt amp http://sunn.ampage.org/site/schematics/100s.jpg  500 volt

40 watt amp http://sunn.ampage.org/site/schematics/solarus.gif  470 volt

Of course these are at late 60's 110 volt wall voltages

Maybe up here in Canada the wall voltage is not as high in our "Igloo's"
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 02:01:42 am by MusicFox »
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Offline Johnny

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Re: B+ lower voltage in the 40 watt amps
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2009, 10:49:25 am »
You can see on the schematics they use different transformers. Showing 3-6PT for the 60 watter and 3-4PT for the 40 watter. I don't have a 40 watt amp, but I used a 600 volt cap. I don't remember what the voltage was there, but it was more than 500, maybe as much as 525 from my 120 AC.

Offline jbopper

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Re: B+ lower voltage in the 40 watt amps
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2009, 03:59:31 pm »
On the B+ voltage discussion, let me throw in another element in the interest of some additional perspective, and this applies to all the different amp models.  Just as influential as today's higher line voltages when it comes to B+ supply voltage is the bias level being set on the power output tubes and the resulting idle current draw. 

Let's take a look at the original Dynaco Mk III schematic from the 1950's or '60s which indicates 117VAC line voltage and a B+ of 480VDC.  If we adjust the B+ up 5% or so for present-day line voltage (our line here in the Miami, FL area averages around 123VAC), we should be looking at ~505VDC at the B+ point, as adjusted. (BTW, I've found through numerous measurements at many Variac settings, that the B+ moves in very close linear proportions to changes in line supply voltage at the upper end of the range near normal line voltages)  But you say, "Wait a minute -- I'm seeing more like +/-540V at the B+ in my 60W Sunn head!  That's a huge difference from 505V -- what's the deal?"  Sunn doesn't specify (at least not that I've ever been able to find looking at what seems to be every schematic they ever published) the output stage idle current draw specification. (They do show -55V at the bias supply pot output, but given the huge number of variables, especially in the plate current characteristics from tube-to-tube, the bias voltage by itself is almost meaningless).  In the real world, I suspect that most Sunn 60 Watters are biased in the +/-40mA (per tube) range at idle (e.g., my stock Solarus w/5AR4 and GE 6550A's gives me the sound I like at around 38mA per side while my later solid state-rectified Sceptre, hotrodded with the 120W power transformer and KT88s likes 44mA.  The B+ is 540V and 560V, respectively).  But look at how hot Dynaco was running them originally: 70mA idle per tube! (just do the simple math: 1.56V across an 11.2 ohm cathode resistor = 140mA).   Starting to push close to max. plate dissipation rating and running the amp at a rather high Class AB operating point.  That much idle current really sucks down the B+, especially with the higher impedance power supply resulting from using a tube rectifier.

Kind of a long way of saying (but I think relevant to show all the pieces of the puzzle to properly make the point) that depending upon how hot or cold you like to bias your output tubes, you will see major differences in the B+ voltage you end up with.  So don't get too hung up on the voltage in your amp compared to what you read about, as long as it is reasonably consistent w/ your bias settings and everything else checks out and the amp sounds good.

P.S. to MusicFox, my Sentura I and early Solarus, both 40 Watters, each show about 490 plate volts with the output biased at ~38mA per tube.

No matter what you've got, Sunn = Fun!!

Offline MusicFox

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Re: B+ lower voltage in the 40 watt amps
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2009, 09:45:46 am »
Really concise information...Thanks Jbopper. I know just enough that it all makes good sense to me. I have copied the text for my Tech as he is now working on my 69 Solarus. Tube rectifier for sure with EL 34's Biased probably as suggested. We are using 600 volt 40uf independent cap for first Power supply cap and a 525 volt 40/40/40 can after the choke for the rest. (People use 50/50/50/50 with the SDS boards so.......) We will be testing the B+ extensively including measuring surge voltage at Cap can. The 490 volts seen at plate as suggested would have the first 600 volt cap to handle it and we're hoping we'll see safe numbers at the Cap Can after the choke. If not, we'll remove it and continue with Dedicated caps.

Thanks again. One only has to wait a while for a good technical answer. Some folks want a answer in hours not days or weeks. This Solarus is my Third Sunn.

Bands currently. For Fox Sake (Lead Guitar) Aces High (5 string Bass) Zoot Suit Riot (Tenor Sax) Miles to Midnight (Fretless jazz bass) Rockfish (5 string bass) Spent Youth (5 string bass) Tried as Adults (5 string bass)