Sunn (Fender) Model T Footswitch Question

[lexluthor]

Hi Everyone,

Still kinda new to the forum, but recently purchased my first Sunn product, and I'm a big fan. However, the footswitch I got with the head isn't working. It's also not the original footswitch (or at least the one that's in the user manual). It's still a Sunn footswitch, but it's black and appears to be older than the mid-90s Sunn head I have. I want to replace it, but I'm not sure what I can replace it with aside from the one designed for that particular model. I see them on ebay for $50 a pop, but I was wondering if there are other footswitches I can use that will work the same (and hopefully cost a little less). I've called around to guitar stores in my area, and no one seems to be able to give me a straight answer, so I'm trying my luck here.
Any help at all would really be appreciated.
Thanks.

[At_Giza]

You could find the schematic for the Princeton footswitch and build your own. It isn't hard and it's a little cheaper than buying one new. Then again, if you got that amp for anywhere near $1000 then $50 shouldn't hurt too much.

Either way, that's the one that will work with it (and others).  On top of all that, not very many of us are fans of the Fender T, it's a completely different amp than the Sunn Model T.

[lexluthor]

Fair enough. The amp says Sunn on it, so that's why I asked here. Didn't realize it was so stigmatized. In any case, thanks for the help.

[At_Giza]

You're welcome.

It's not that it's stigmatized, but I remember reading from a Fender Sunn release that it was a reissue of the EXACT amp Sunn built back in the 70s. Of course, that's a blatant lie once you hear the amp. Fender has mishandled the badge since they bought it a few decades ago. They ended up shutting it down because it wasn't the cash cow they thought it would be. At least while it was under Hartzell it put out some great products. Fender's Sunn really never made any product worth buying. The cabs and the 300T are probably the only things I would ever buy from them.

Without the band Sunn O))) these amps would have easily faded into obscurity. Not that that's a bad thing. Fifteen years ago you could have gotten a Sunn Model T for a couple hundred bucks. Thanks Sunn O))), you really know how to market a name.

/end rant

[EdBass]

You're welcome.

It's not that it's stigmatized, but I remember reading from a Fender Sunn release that it was a reissue of the EXACT amp Sunn built back in the 70s. Of course, that's a blatant lie once you hear the amp. Fender has mishandled the badge since they bought it a few decades ago. They ended up shutting it down because it wasn't the cash cow they thought it would be. At least while it was under Hartzell it put out some great products. Fender's Sunn really never made any product worth buying. The cabs and the 300T are probably the only things I would ever buy from them.

Without the band Sunn O))) these amps would have easily faded into obscurity. Not that that's a bad thing. Fifteen years ago you could have gotten a Sunn Model T for a couple hundred bucks. Thanks Sunn O))), you really know how to market a name.

/end rant

I don’t remember Fender ever saying that it was a “reissue of the EXACT amp Sunn built back in the 70s”. They cleverly made references to the Sunn heritage, and cited events from Sunns history, but that’s their prerogative. They bought the “heritage” when they paid for the brand.
It would be foolish for FMIC’s marketing dept to claim their Model T was a “reissue of the EXACT amp Sunn built back in the 70s”. They could have copied the original Model T exactly if they wanted to; it’s not rocket science and God knows Fender had/has the resources to copy the original Model T part for part. They opted to modernize it a little, make some updates.
That doesn’t make it a bad or inferior amp, just a different amp. And… Every bit as much of a “Sunn” as a Hartzell era amp; FMIC bought the brand just like Tom Hartzell did.

I doubt FMIC thought Sunn would be a “cash cow”, my guess is that they got it cheap from the Hartzell  family after Tom Hartzell was killed in a plane crash in the 80’s. His family let the brand flounder and Fender scooped it up because it was there and probably thought it was a value. I think some of the Fender/Sunn stuff is pretty nice; in particular I like the 300T for what it is, and I think the T50 is a rockin’ little combo.  The 1200S is a powerhouse bass amp with a ton of features, and like its bass brother, the 300T, both continued branded as Fenders after FMIC shelved the Sunn label.
I think FMIC took a shot at marketing Sunn but overestimated the label’s following and realized that the gear they had developed as “Sunn” would sell better with a Fender badge.

As far as Sunn O))) having an influence, well a few years ago I asked a Fender AR guy about it at a NAMM show  and his answer was “Who?”. I tried to explain it and he said “Really? There’s a group out there calling themselves Sunn, spelled S-U-N-N? Hmmm… I wonder if legal knows about that.”
Obviously Sunn O))) has a pretty loyal cult following, but as far as mainstream , big league influence over musical equipment buyers; the league that Fender plays in, they don’t have anywhere near the pull of major acts.

[At_Giza]

I don’t remember Fender ever saying that it was a “reissue of the EXACT amp Sunn built back in the 70s”. They cleverly made references to the Sunn heritage, and cited events from Sunns history, but that’s their prerogative. They bought the “heritage” when they paid for the brand.
It would be foolish for FMIC’s marketing dept to claim their Model T was a “reissue of the EXACT amp Sunn built back in the 70s”. They could have copied the original Model T exactly if they wanted to; it’s not rocket science and God knows Fender had/has the resources to copy the original Model T part for part. They opted to modernize it a little, make some updates.

Dunno if it was an official Fender release or someone who didn't know what they were talking about speaking for Fender without Fender's permission. I was in middle school and just learning my stuff. I regurgitate it because I dislike people saying they're the same amp. Hence why I call it the Fender T.

That doesn’t make it a bad or inferior amp, just a different amp. And… Every bit as much of a “Sunn” as a Hartzell era amp; FMIC bought the brand just like Tom Hartzell did.

Of course it makes it a different amp, that's my point. I just like to be snooty when I am ranting. The only reason I say Fender T is because it's not like taking a car that is hardly, if at all, changed and badging it under a different brand name. It's taking and making something completely different under the exact same badge then letting people who have never heard the original let alone own an original think it's the same amp that's just been reissued. It's like updating a car, but not like the new Honda Civic, it's like taking the Jag XK and making it the XKR (basically attempting to make it better).

I'd buy one, but not for how much they pull.

I doubt FMIC thought Sunn would be a “cash cow”, my guess is that they got it cheap from the Hartzell  family after Tom Hartzell was killed in a plane crash in the 80’s. His family let the brand flounder and Fender scooped it up because it was there and probably thought it was a value. I think some of the Fender/Sunn stuff is pretty nice; in particular I like the 300T for what it is, and I think the T50 is a rockin’ little combo.  The 1200S is a powerhouse bass amp with a ton of features, and like its bass brother, the 300T, both continued branded as Fenders after FMIC shelved the Sunn label.
I think FMIC took a shot at marketing Sunn but overestimated the label’s following and realized that the gear they had developed as “Sunn” would sell better with a Fender badge.

Overestimating the brand's selling power is the same thing as thinking something can be a cash cow. Cash cows don't have to be huge, they may have seen the deal that the Hartzell Corp was willing to give them and thought that it was a quick deal that could make them back their investment in quick time (which it probably did pretty quick, and that's all fine and dandy). Everything is all speculation because none of us were in the room. We can only talk to people who were either there or almost there and fill in the blanks with our ravings.

As far as Sunn O))) having an influence, well a few years ago I asked a Fender AR guy about it at a NAMM show  and his answer was “Who?”. I tried to explain it and he said “Really? There’s a group out there calling themselves Sunn, spelled S-U-N-N? Hmmm… I wonder if legal knows about that.”
Obviously Sunn O))) has a pretty loyal cult following, but as far as mainstream , big league influence over musical equipment buyers; the league that Fender plays in, they don’t have anywhere near the pull of major acts.

This is a huge demographic though when one compares the amount of desirable Sunn gear to the amount of people into music akin to Sunn O))), just because some Fender guy at NAMM had never heard of them doesn't mean a damn thing, he's just not into Doom and all of its subs. There's more than one demographic into Sunn amps. There's the old guys who've been around since Sunn's inception, the kids influenced by the old guys and their bands, and the younger people who got into them through other genres that used the amps. There isn't millions of Sunn's gear out there for everyone who wants one in their bedroom. Even if there's only 50,000 people interested in getting Sunn gear there is probably not 50,000 pieces of Sunn gear to satisfy their desire for it. The Sunn O))) demographic plus all the associated acts with Sunn gear easily breaks that milestone and makes it hard for people who want the amps for the tone and not the name.

Well, that became more of a rant on why I hate naming things than anything else...

[EdBass]

As I said, I don’t think that you’ll find a Fender ad even claiming it’s a re-issue. In fact, here’s an ACTUAL QUOTE from the literature for the Model T;

“A huge stack of SUNN amplifiers was a common sight at major concerts and festivals of the ‘60’s and ‘70’s...even Woodstock! While the new Model T looks very much like an old SUNN from that era, it is actually an all-new tube amplifier with some unique modern features.”

So, your rant is pretty much based on middle school gossip rather than actual fact. While you claim to “dislike people saying they're the same amp”, it seems that the only people that call it the same amp are you and your peers.

Obviously Fender never claimed their amp to be a clone, or even a re-issue; are there posts here, or on other enthusiasts forums, where anyone actually says the amps are the same? Please share...

Your post makes it seem like a conspiracy by Fender to dupe the public into thinking their amp is the same as the Hartzell version, when in actuality they never did, and your reference for your rant is some middle school kid’s delusion. 

Since you call it a “Fender T”, do you also call the older ones “Hartzell T’s”? You should, since they are both Sunns but neither Hartzell nor Fender is the ORIGINAL Sunn; why would you call one by the parent company and not the other? 
Or do you call it a "Fender T" as a slur because you somehow think it's a lesser amp?


The fact that a Fender artists relations guy never heard of a band is indeed significant. It means that the bands potential influence isn’t worth his time thinking about. He’s “just not into Doom and all of its subs” because there isn’t enough revenue in that genre to be concerned about, and it’s his job to promote and endorse up and coming bands if he thinks they might eventually make some money. If he thought the doom genre could earn any significant revenue he would be on it like white on rice.
On the other hand this obscurity may well be why FMIC hadn’t made the Sunn O))) band cease and desist using their trademarked logo. They wouldn’t waste the legal fees to sue, what could they win as an award, a pile of beat up old amps? You can’t get blood from a rock, and who knows; maybe the band paid to use the logo. 

I know that doom and its relatives are popular among certain factions, but it’s such a VERY small niche that it’s virtually invisible compared to the music industry as a whole, so insignificant that it’s not even a blip on mainstream industry’s radar.

If there WAS a market; if doom acts were touring multicity stadium venues and selling millions of albums instead of hundreds of albums, FMIC would re-issue Sunn gear, and doom inspired gear would be all over the Musician’s Friend catalog.
That’s how it works in the real world. 

[At_Giza]

As I said, I don’t think that you’ll find a Fender ad even claiming it’s a re-issue. In fact, here’s an ACTUAL QUOTE from the literature for the Model T;

“A huge stack of SUNN amplifiers was a common sight at major concerts and festivals of the ‘60’s and ‘70’s...even Woodstock! While the new Model T looks very much like an old SUNN from that era, it is actually an all-new tube amplifier with some unique modern features.”

Keywords in that is "All-new tube amplifier." That just ends up making it something Fender designed to be named after the Model T of the Hartzell era. Which I don't have a problem with, just think that needs to be stapled to some people's heads.

So, your rant is pretty much based on middle school gossip rather than actual fact. While you claim to “dislike people saying they're the same amp”, it seems that the only people that call it the same amp are you and your peers.

I said I read it in middle school, when I was 13 years old. I don't know if it was someone my age, or a 35 year old guy writing an article for a gear magazine or website. I don't remember, it's just stuck with me through the years because it didn't sit well with me.

Also, that "you and your peers" statement seemed to sound derogatory, though I doubt that was the intention. I obviously don't call it the same amp, official Fender marketing releases obviously call it an all new amp, but it seems there is a large amount of people that seem to think that it is the same amp as Hartzell's Sunn designed and built. I can't answer why, though I will just leave it at simple ignorance.

Obviously Fender never claimed their amp to be a clone, or even a re-issue; are there posts here, or on other enthusiasts forums, where anyone actually says the amps are the same? Please share...

I really don't feel like looking it all up, I've seen people talk about how it's a reissue, but whether they are talking about circuit composition or the name itself, I do not know, it is much too vague. I'll easily cop to saying that Fender reissued the name "Model T" under their Sunn brand when they designed the new amp.

Your post makes it seem like a conspiracy by Fender to dupe the public into thinking their amp is the same as the Hartzell version, when in actuality they never did, and your reference for your rant is some middle school kid’s delusion. 

The last part of this statement has been addressed, so I'll focus on the fact that there is no comprehensive library of information on Sunn gear from any era, this brand is way too obscure for that (but as I've said, not obscure enough for my wallet's taste). If there were I would think all the random misinformations that float around on the web about Sunn gear would be expunged. The only thing we could come up with since there is no database on Sunn gear through the years are theories, maybe not conspiracy theories, but theories nonetheless. There's not even a complete Sunn catalog for the years. Even Acoustic Control Corp. Has a pretty comprehensive catalog. How? I dunno, maybe their catalogs were printed on paper that didn't yellow with age.

Since you call it a “Fender T”, do you also call the older ones “Hartzell T’s”? You should, since they are both Sunns but neither Hartzell nor Fender is the ORIGINAL Sunn; why would you call one by the parent company and not the other? 
Or do you call it a "Fender T" as a slur because you somehow think it's a lesser amp?

I call it the Fender T because I was in a music store a few years back that had a Model T with the Fender logo on it instead of the Sunn logo. Asked about it and no one had an answer as to why. It stuck after that. I wouldn't either call the Hartzell era Sunn Model Ts Hartzell Ts because they were the original Ts and Hartzell didn't have a large plethora of music brands under their belt which to make other gear with. They continued the Sunn brand along, upped wattage in original Sunn amps, tweaked them, created new gear under the Sunn subsidiary, discontinued products and then began to let the company flounder. They didn't just shelve the brand like Fender did because it wasn't making money. They just let it start dying and sold it to a company that could have easily kept the name on a somewhat moderate scale, which they did. Sunn's not a money-maker, though on a small scale (which equals "expensive") I am sure there would be a market in a boutique capacity.

The fact that a Fender artists relations guy never heard of a band is indeed significant. It means that the bands potential influence isn’t worth his time thinking about. He’s “just not into Doom and all of its subs” because there isn’t enough revenue in that genre to be concerned about, and it’s his job to promote and endorse up and coming bands if he thinks they might eventually make some money. If he thought the doom genre could earn any significant revenue he would be on it like white on rice.
On the other hand this obscurity may well be why FMIC hadn’t made the Sunn O))) band cease and desist using their trademarked logo. They wouldn’t waste the legal fees to sue, what could they win as an award, a pile of beat up old amps? You can’t get blood from a rock, and who knows; maybe the band paid to use the logo. 

I dunno, I'd ask them but I really don't care. Don't like the band anyway.

I should say again that I was always referring to the second hand industry when I was talking about the supply and demand. The Fender AR guy never hearing of the band just doesn't matter at all because there is no longer any new Sunn gear being produced. If there were, it would matter a lot if he never heard the band and that was moderately popularizing the brand, but since there is no new gear coming out it just does not matter that someone in AR hasn't heard of something with a menagerie of interested fans. Let's just put it this way, if Fender was still producing under the Sunn brand, then they would probably want to either endorse or issue a cease and desist to Sunn O))). It's like this, just because Orphaned Land doesn't sell millions of albums worldwide nor plays large venues didn't stop PRS from endorsing them. What would stop Fender from endorsing Sunn O))) if Fender were still producing the brand? (The answer to that is probably greed, but then again, that's not necessarily a bad thing in a capitalist market).

I know that doom and its relatives are popular among certain factions, but it’s such a VERY small niche that it’s virtually invisible compared to the music industry as a whole, so insignificant that it’s not even a blip on mainstream industry’s radar.

That's correct, but there still is enough of an interest in the brand that those Doom bands play for plenty of current brands to stay on their feet and the a second hand Sunn gear market to satisfy them.

If there WAS a market; if doom acts were touring multicity stadium venues and selling millions of albums instead of hundreds of albums, FMIC would re-issue Sunn gear, and doom inspired gear would be all over the Musician’s Friend catalog.
That’s how it works in the real world. 

Cite your source for the "hundreds." That's insulting the genre, lesser in the market but no lesser in the eyes of subjective listeners. I listen to and buy both Pop and Doom records but so do many other people, not to mention the people that download albums (then go to shows, I should know, when I saw Sleep last year in Portland, half the kids there looked like they downloaded the bands albums then went to see the show because they thought it was what was "in"). Those number in the million easily, and that's all it takes for a strong secondhand market for Sunn amps. I'm only referring to the second hand market when I talk about Sunn O))) popularizing the brand, 'cause every artist bio says they're named after the amp company (which then makes all the people Google the name and look up and then either decry or want a Sunn amp). It only takes a small amount of people in such a small secondhand market (did I mention I was only referring to the second hand market? hyuk hyuk).

Of course, Pop music sells the millions of albums, which make labels and what not huge amounts of money, it takes tours and merch for bands to make any significant money. The Melvins members all make around $75,000 a year and they aren't complaining. Plenty of people play Beta Leads because of Buzzo. I'm sure if there was someone out there making new Beta Lead amps there would be people to buy them for their probably exorbitant price.

I suppose it's high time to revive the Sunn badge in a boutique market. (Acoustic has done it, but they just want waaaaaay too much damned money for the new solid state stuff).

[lexluthor]

Wow, all this over a simple footswitch question...
I know the two heads are different, my amp tech explained to me that the Fender version isn't a point-to-point, but rather a circuitboard, and so on and so forth...
Frankly, I don't care about the differences or whatever Fender claims in regard to the amp. I have the amp that I have and I'm happy with it. It says SUNN on the amp, and this is a SUNN forum, so that's why I posted here in the first place. All I wanted to know was what footswitches could be used as a replacement.