Author Topic: please help discern some specs on this Concert Lead head..  (Read 18652 times)

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Offline EdBass

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Re: please help discern some specs on this Concert Lead head..
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2011, 09:01:31 am »
I'm not personally real up on Sunn transistor amps, however there have been some pretty compelling arguments made against the stability of the Concert output stage running a 2 ohm load over the years; by IMO some very tech savvy forum members.
I know this though; in the real world of professional sound reinforcement, running serious high dollar/low impedance stable amps, intentionally planned 2 ohm loads are avoided like herpes. These are amps that will often run stable bridged with a 2 ohm load, far more "bulletproof" than the amps being discussed here.
There are myriad reasons that running a non OT transistor amp with a 2 ohm nominal load is not a good idea, but to summarize it's real close to a dead short. It leaves little margin for error. Taking into consideration the nature of speaker impedance ratings, the amp may regularly see loads that are a fraction of an ohm; too close for comfort in the pro world.
A happy amp is a good sounding reliable amp, and a 2 ohm load doesn't make for a "happy" amp.

From some posts I read, it almost seems like running 2 ohms is like a "bragging" thing, when in reality the increase in actual dB between 150 and 200 watts is insignificant. For all intent and purposes virtually inaudible to the ear, requiring accurate measuring equipment to notice; maybe <1 dB, and IMO the potential risk FAR outweighs any potential gain.

While it may be convenient to daisy chain a pile of cabs together in parallel, you can generally run as many speakers as you want with judicious use of series and parallel wiring, so the excuse that 2 ohms is required to run multiple cabinets doesn't really hold water either.

Sorry for the little "derail" interloper!  :wink:

Ohms are still somewhat new to me, so forgive me if I sound clueless...so I gather from this info it would be better to run the head at, say, 4ohms? I will most likely be using it with an Orange PPC412 cab, in which case will I have to adjust the impedance level on the cab to suit?

Transistors will output more power (and more heat) the lower the load impedance goes. Regretfully they also become less stable the lower the impedance goes to the point where they will go Chernobyl and just fry your amp.

There is usually  a minimum recommended/specified load impedance for any individual amplifier by the manufacturer; usually dependent on the robustness, topography, output devices used etc. of the specific amp. 
The debate here is what that minimum is for a Concert series Sunn, more specifically whether or not the Concert series is "stable" running a 2 ohm load. I would say that the consensus among the tech types on this forum is that 4 ohms  is a much better/safer idea with the Concert.

What my derail was is pointing out that "running 2 ohms" somehow has become a hip catch phrase in certain circles, and makes an insignificant difference over 4 ohms in the SPL of a rig in the big picture anyway.
So what's the point of "running 2 ohms"?   :?*
IMO if you want LOUD adding more speakers rather than stressing your vintage amplifier to the point of catastrophic failure.

I'm not aware of a way to adjust the impedance of an Orange PPC412, as far as I know they only come as a 16 ohm mono cab or a 8/16 ohm stereo cab and you would need to rewire the cab to change that.
It's probably 16 ohm drivers in series parallel so you could go all parallel to get 4 ohms.




*I have run 2 ohms with my SR gear, but only in an emergency such as power amp(s) going out at a gig.
I run enough amps to keep everything at 8 ohms as much as possible (not always possible) in order to keep everything fat and happy and maintain ample room if I have to "double up" in case of failure.

Offline interloper

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Re: please help discern some specs on this Concert Lead head..
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2011, 09:40:15 pm »
Hmm, right! Well the guy who's changing the transformer for me will likely know about rewiring, I haven't the slightest clue. However the level I'd get from 100w of head power to a cab running at 4ohms should be significant...at the moment I'm running a 50w Marshall VintageModern head through the accompanying 1960AV cabinet and I'd like the Sunn/Orange rig to be a biiit louder than that.

Offline Isaac

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Re: please help discern some specs on this Concert Lead head..
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2011, 12:43:29 pm »
"A bit" louder is all you can expect. Math geeking again: 100w v 50w is only 3 dB. That's a little louder, but not much. 3dB is generally considered to be the threshold for detecting a difference in volume.
Isaac

Offline loudthud

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Re: please help discern some specs on this Concert Lead head..
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2011, 11:24:32 am »
I'd like to point out that the output stage of the red knob Concert amps is very similar to the Vox Super Beatle (rated 120W @ 2 ohms). The Concert has a slightly higher rail voltage but they use the same output transistors. The big problem with both of these circuits is the absence of any short circuit protection other than simple beta limiting. Although you can still get 2N3055s, the MJ15003 is a heavier duty substitute.

Offline interloper

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Re: please help discern some specs on this Concert Lead head..
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2011, 09:22:52 pm »
I'd like to point out that the output stage of the red knob Concert amps is very similar to the Vox Super Beatle (rated 120W @ 2 ohms). The Concert has a slightly higher rail voltage but they use the same output transistors. The big problem with both of these circuits is the absence of any short circuit protection other than simple beta limiting. Although you can still get 2N3055s, the MJ15003 is a heavier duty substitute.

if you have the time, could you please define 'rail voltage', 'transistors' and 'beta limiting'? all of that has gone over my head  :oops: but i would like to know how everything works.

Offline loudthud

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Re: please help discern some specs on this Concert Lead head..
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2011, 02:48:13 pm »
If you don't know what a transistor is, the explanation is way beyond the scope of this forum. I suggest you goto:

http://www.ssguitar.com/index.php

Join up and then read all the FAQs and posts in the beginners forum about solid state amplifiers. You will need to know a little about electricity, Volts, Amps and so on.

Offline interloper

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Re: please help discern some specs on this Concert Lead head..
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2011, 11:13:36 pm »
thanks a lot! this looks to be a fantastic starting point.

Offline Isaac

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Re: please help discern some specs on this Concert Lead head..
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2011, 02:53:32 pm »
So what is beta limiting? We didn't cover that in my engineering classes.
Isaac

Offline loudthud

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Re: please help discern some specs on this Concert Lead head..
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2011, 05:57:02 pm »
Basically there is only so much base current available from the driving stage and the output transistors only have so much beta (which decreases at high currents) so eventually the current into a short is limited. If the moon is in the correct phase, a trip to the amp tech is avoided. Not a very reliable circuit.

Offline george

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Re: please help discern some specs on this Concert Lead head..
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2011, 03:31:02 pm »
Google Kirk effect in BJTs (nothing to do with star trek) if you want to explore the device physics behind beta decreasing with "maximum" collector current.

Offline Isaac

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Re: please help discern some specs on this Concert Lead head..
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2011, 12:54:46 pm »
No, you didn't get ripped off. You weren't cheated, there does not appear to be any fraud involved. You just paid more than you might have. The seller got the better of you in a business deal. Happens all the time.
Isaac

Offline interloper

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Re: please help discern some specs on this Concert Lead head..
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2011, 03:59:32 pm »
here's the rig! thanks everyone for your help. sounds mean, using it with my VintageModern 1/2stack which compliments the tone quite well.