Author Topic: Should a 200S amp be crunchy past 5 on the volume?  (Read 4336 times)

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Offline Randy H.

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Should a 200S amp be crunchy past 5 on the volume?
« on: January 12, 2002, 05:26:00 pm »
My late 60's 200S distorts past 5 on the volume.  A crunchy type of distortion.  Is this normal?  Iv'e read that this is normal, but then I have also read the old advertisements on this site, and the ads say "no distortion..." - so I'm not sure what to believe.
A tech just went through it and replaced power tubes with JJ KT88's, the GZ34 rectifier, and some filters/capacitors.  Also rebiased.  Tone/sound is clean/awesome up to 5 on the dial though.  
RUN

Offline MarkG

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Should a 200S amp be crunchy past 5 on the volume?
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2002, 03:46:00 pm »
In My opinion no. You didnt say what instrument you were playing,or what speaker,but assuming bass. I run mine at about 6-7 when using a 1-15 cabinet. Never more but only because a little shy about overextending the speaker. With 2-15,can open up 7-8 easily. Clean as can be even with Bass and HiBoost turned on . Never turned passed 8 ,,Im afraid of it!   Make sure you are correctly matched with your speaker  impedance.

Offline Randy H.

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Should a 200S amp be crunchy past 5 on the volume?
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2002, 06:20:00 pm »
I play a Fender P-bass through it.  I can get to 7 on the volume and get a clean sound but only if the bass and high boosts are OFF.  After replacing the tubes, rectifier...I still get the "dirtyness" past 5 with the boosts ON.  I would gladly pay to have the problem fixed if I only knew what was the cause.  Anyone please?

Anonymous

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Should a 200S amp be crunchy past 5 on the volume?
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2002, 08:18:00 pm »
I'm assuming bass here too.

The type of speaker and its efficiency are important factors here.  A +100db 1W/1m (i.e. high end JBL or EV) speaker will get you much further than the current crop of cabinets with less efficient speakers.  Modern bass amps have a lot of power to spare compared with the 200S when running into a contemporary box.  The 200S and its ilk are good sounding amps and I especially like the guitar sound they give but for bass I do like a little more clean headroom and power.  I do play at very loud volumes.  YMMV.  BTW, my tone gets progressively "fuzzy", not "crunchy" at around 5 on the volume with the tone switches set as you describe.  But it's not bad or overwhelming and adds nice bite and character to the sound.

Offline MikeL

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Should a 200S amp be crunchy past 5 on the volume?
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2002, 02:48:00 pm »
In the 30+ years(ouch!)that I've used a variety of Sunn tube amps(primarily for bass)I've always noticed a point of diminishing returns at about "7" on the volume. Anything past that does not increase volume, but creates that special Sunn-specific distortion I nick-named "the burn".  Not creamy Marshall break-up, not compressed bright Fender surf-tone, the Sunn burn reminds me of the buzz you'd hear standing next to a giant electric power transformer. The conventional wisdom on this is that 6550 or KT88 power tubes provide very clean power up to the very end of being pushed(therefore being well-suited for bass amplification), and then finally break up with a very nasty, brittle overdrive. Sorta like transistor amps, huh? While this may be true, I think the interaction of the preamp tube driving into the power amp tubes has something to do with the saturation. So, assuming that all is well with your amps' capacitors, etc., you might want to experiment with using a preamp tube with slightly less gain, like a 12az7, kinda hard to find, but it will give you alot more headroom, especially if you have a bass with active pick-ups. Also, just for an experiment, if you can run your head through a very efficient modern speaker cab for contrast, do so.  Also, remember that introducing the low-boost switch will tax the power tubes a bit, as you are introducing a tonal filter, just like down-shifting a car to go up a hill will take stepping on the gas pedal.

Offline Fred Cook

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Should a 200S amp be crunchy past 5 on the volume?
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2002, 01:29:00 pm »
See my "LoGain" post. I am very pleased with the sound of an 12AT7 vs. a 12AX7. The AT is an easy tube to find. There is also a 5751 option which I have not tried.

Look here: http://store.yahoo.com/thetubestore/gainfactor.html
Savor the Sawgrass!
DiploStrat

Offline Rocketboy

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Should a 200S amp be crunchy past 5 on the volume?
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2002, 02:25:00 am »
Get a 300T (while you can).
Heads up, everybody!

Offline Rocketboy

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Should a 200S amp be crunchy past 5 on the volume?
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2002, 01:03:00 am »
Hey Randy,
Glad you got the 300T!  Hope you like yours as much as I like mine.  Regarding the relative volume setting on your 200S before distortion sets in, I think you are solidly in the ballpark (as in the pitcher's mound).  My 200S, after the cap job, new tubes, and rebiasing will distort at any setting over 7 on the volume with the bass and treble controls set flat, and neither of the boost switches on.  At that point it is shaking the whole house and just absurdly loud.  Depending where the bias voltage is set, the amp will exhibit more or less gain; the sound will also be different.  It is possible to bias the finals to be clean with the volume all the way up, but that is not usually the best sound, in my opinion.  The fatter the sound, the sooner the amp will distort.  In my case, with a solid-state rectifier, maxing at 7 is perfect.  I believe you use the vacuum tube rectifier.  That is going to limit your clean volume.  Nothing wrong with that.  It all depends on the sound you like.  My experience has been that the deep switch is really neat when using 10" speakers, but really fouls the sound when using 15's.  If you can run your 200S on 5 with both boost switches on before you get audible distortion, your amp is probably working just fine.  Please remember that with the tube rectifier you are limited to approximately 60W RMS which, as bass amps go, ain't very much.  Good luck.  I'll keep fiddling with my 200S.
Heads up, everybody!

Offline Randy H.

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Should a 200S amp be crunchy past 5 on the volume?
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2002, 04:51:00 pm »
Hi Rocketboy - thank you for the info.  I am really happy with the 300T - all round the best bass amplifer for large venue gigs that I have used.  My 200s is also quite nice.  Probably the sweetest tone of any amp I own for these size venues (incl. my ampeg B15).I use it for smaller size gigs through my circa '72 215s 2x15 cab (JBL K140's-I also use this cab with the 300T).    What RMS could I expect if I were to change this rectifer you refer to to some other - and which other? Thanks.  

Randy

Offline Greg Z

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Should a 200S amp be crunchy past 5 on the volume?
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2002, 04:03:00 pm »
I run a 5751 pre in my 1200s with SS rectifier. It will go to 9 clean then on
10 that wonderful, balsy Sunn grunt and grind. Kick in the Mid-boost at 7 or above
and look out.

 Greg z
to thine own sound be true
Greg Z
to thine own sound be true
 gmz79-at-aol.com