what's the difference?

[Anonymous]

Could someone tell me what's the big deal about vintage sunn amp?
Is A new ModelT crap?

[TubeMan]

the new model Ts ARENT crap.. theyre pretty good amps.

BUT,

the big deal with them is that most Sunn-ers dont consider them "true" sunns because they are actually redesigned by fender.

it all depends on your personal preference to tone. if you want a REAL vintage SUNN sound, get a VINTAGE SUNN.

If you want a VERY LOUD fender sound, get a Sunn reissue.

i prefer the vintage sunns.. for a few reasons.. but dont worry.. we wont hate you if you get a new Sunn.

-T

[Fred Cook]

Do a "search" or simply broswse the forum for posts (many by me) on the reasons for the "old" Sunn sound.

Sunn made three basic amps:
-- 2 KT88/6550 & huge transformers
-- 2 EL-34 and large transformers
-- 4 6550 (I have no experience w/these beasts.)

To these they added a
-- guitar preamp, one with, one without effects
-- various bass preamps
-- PA (i.e. multi channel) preamp

Under these they put a range of speaker cabs. Others can be more precise on this.

Sunns always had a vey flat response, much less of a notch in the sound than Fender. They were also cleaner and louder than most competition. This, plus the early use of big (15') JBL speakers and ported enclosures, made them immediately popular w/bassists.

Some of us kids saved all our coins to buy a Sunn because we didn't like Fenders. Most of the big name guitarists who tried Sunns dropped them because they were too clean. (Remember, fuzz/overdrives were very rough and primative at this point - think "Satisfaction." The creamy, Claptonesque "woman tone" came from midrangey Marshalls and tons of 25watt speakers. Sunns did none of this well. Sunn fought back by adding a mid boost to their amps and producing a 4x12 model, but it was too late.

I leave it to others to describe the new, now extinct "Fender" Sunns. Most people who have tried 'em, love em. And, once again, Sunns are a great deal for players, vice collectors, as they are cheap.

I was fortunate enough to buy a mint '69 Secptre with the 4x12 alnico cab. I play a Lone Star 'strat and a Heritage 535 and it sounds great with either.

I am running JJ KT88's (but the original RCA 6550's are still perfect).

I play around with the preamp tube, currently running a JJ 12AT7.

This beast doesn't cut through the mix, it bulldozes it. The sound is huge and everyone who hears the rig loves it. I have a Visual Sounds RT 66 and a TSX-9 in front of the amp, but, in fact, rarely use them. Certainly the compressor is never needed at stage volume.

Sooo, bottom line. While the Solarus (w/EL-34's and 2x12) and the Sceptre (w/4x12) are the most "modern" of the old Sunn line, I'd kill for any of 'em.

The JBL 15's have a great sound. I used to get fantastic sounds with a 335 and a 15"&horn cab. If the horns add too much sizzle for your taste, get a tech to pad the horn more, or bypass it alltogether.

Sorry for the long post, but this forum has been a bid dead since Fender pulled the plug on the new Sunns.

So lift a glass to Conrad, play loud, and let the Sunn shine!

[frenchip]

so, if I bought one of the more recent sunn amp, could I mod. them in order to get the sound closer to a vintage one?

[Fred Cook]

That is a very interesting question, with perhaps two or three different answers:

-- Why would you want to? Sunn was never that popular w/guitarists (much more popular w/bassists) -- largely because the sound was too clean.

-- Why bother, vintage Sunns are cheap, if sometimes a bit rare. As they weren't popular the first time, they are not prized like Fender Blackfaces, etc.

-- Could you swap out 6L6's for KT88's? Would it make any difference? I leave that for Greg Z and the other real techies.

Finally, when Fender brought back the Sunn line, it looks like they built the amps on the "Evil Twinn" but voiced it as a higher gain, rough edged monster. The new Sunns that I have heard (not many) had their own voice and I thought is was pretty good. The 50 watt model with extension speaker cab looks like a nice package.

If you then wanted to swap power tubes, replace speakers w/JBL's - well, you get the idea.

Hope these ramblings help.

[JoeArthur]

"-- Could you swap out 6L6's for KT88's? Would it make any difference? I leave that for Greg Z and the other real techies."

NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!

The 6L6/5881 is "pin compatable" with the KT88/6550.  However, the 6L6 heater current draw is 0.9 amp, whereas the 6550 heater current is 1.6 amp, almost twice as much.  Chances are pretty good the power transformer doesn't have this much reserve and/or rating on the heater windings and you will wind up replacing a transformer.

[Fred Cook]

Tanx! That's why I recommended a tech consult.

FYI - Eurotubes rave about the use of KT88's in Fender Twins, but they may do some mods first.

[JoeArthur]

Fred... I took a look at the eurotubes site, and although I couldn't exactly find a "rave", there was one sentence that mentioned the guy had them in his twin.  I assumed that meant a fender twin reverb.

Many, many moons ago, back when you could pick up blackface bassman heads for about 50 bucks a pop, a friend of mine, who happened to be taking a HS electronics class noticed that the 6550 was pin compatable with the 6L6 and made himself believe he could get gobs more power out of his bassman amps by merely swapping tubes.

So he did.  It took about 5 minutes for the amp to fry itself.  That heater current draw I mentioned earlier is per tube BTW.  I guess I could say he was lucky that the power transformer heater windings were the first to go... as the next would have been the output transformer.  6550's also need about 10 volts more bias current and the bassman's "only" 44 volt bias had the 6550 plates glowing red.

The bias supply on the Fender Sunn's Model T runs the output tubes at around 60 volts.  IMO, this is way too high for 6L6's and probably accounts for the somewhat colder/frizzy sound that I personally don't like in these amps.