Author Topic: Eminence in 2000S Cabinets  (Read 7993 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jeff Troy

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 150
Eminence in 2000S Cabinets
« on: June 07, 2011, 02:05:53 pm »
Hi, Guys,

I'm working on two 2000S cabinets and would appreciate your suggestions for speakers.

Back in the day, I ran four of these cabinets (two 2000S heads) with Altec 421A speakers. They sounded great at reasonably high volume, but distorted terribly -- not nicely but farty -- when cranked too hard. I don't have much faith in 40-year-old JBLs and would rather not pay the tab even if I could find four good ones.

I've had good luck with Eminence Delta full-range 15s in my 415M, but I think the Legend series is probably better (I have Legends in my 410S cabs). I'm only running a single 2000S head with the two 2000S cabinets, so I'm not too concerned about needing 50,000 watts of speaker capacity.

Can you recommend an Eminence bass 15 that will fit the 2000S without modifying the baffle? These will be homebrew cabinets from Conrad's factory drawings, so moving the top speaker upward and the lower speaker downward to clear the diagonal baffle board is not a problem.

Just would like to have a few of your thoughts.

Thanks and warmest regards,
759 New Holland Ave.
Lancaster PA 17602
C: 717-917-3670
www.bandmix.com/jefftroy
www.jefftroy.com (under construction)

Offline chev

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
  • feel the tone!
Re: Eminence in 2000S Cabinets
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2011, 12:20:08 pm »
I use four Eminence Legend CB158 15'' 300w in 2 1x15 and the 215 re-issue and to me, they sound amazing! seriously I can't recommend them enough.

loud thick low end with no farting either clean or distorted. I can feel the 27Hz of my low A string...! :-o

I don't know if they fit the baffle though? the magnet is 80oz...

maybe the specs can help you:

http://www.eminence.com/speakers/speaker-detail/?model=Legend_CB15
Sunn Model T 1st gen+Sunn 215s+Sunn 412s, Sunn Beta Bass+Sunn 215+Sunn Coliseum Slave+2 x Sunn 115

Offline EdBass

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,914
Re: Eminence in 2000S Cabinets
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2011, 01:09:45 pm »
I think just about any driver will fit into a 2000S without modifications. It's not like the 200S cabs, it's much "roomier" inside. I've loaded EVM15 EVSRO 15" drivers with the big finned magnet covers on them and they dropped right in, so I don't imagine that you would have a problem with any Eminence drivers.
I can't help you with firsthand experience about Eminence in 2000S cabs, though. I've got a lot of hand on experience with Eminence drivers in modern cabs, and SR cabs, and I think very highly of Eminence as a great value in new production driver. And, as far as I’m concerned they are totally deserving of their prominence in the OEM and replacement driver fields.
But… IMO the Sunn Amp/Sunn Cab/AlNiCo JBL combination is tonally magical, and keeping the rigs "vintage correct" is one of my priorities with my personal old Sunn gear.

Here are some of my reasons;

It's difficult to emulate the transducer technology that is commiserate with a 2000S head using current production drivers; things have changed a bit with the concept of bass guitar amplification in the last 40 years. Think about the power output of the average bass rig, in the late 60's a 100 watt amp was monstrous. When the $2000, 120 watt 2000S rig was introduced it was considered stupid powerful, the '69 SVT was almost cartoonish-ly "over the top" rated at 300 watts.
Compare that to today; big power is dirt cheap. Today you can walk into Guitar Center and buy a Behringer that has as much power as a 2000S and a SVT [/i]combined[/i] for $250 (not to even mention in 2011 dollars vs 1969 dollars) brand new. 1000 watt bass rigs are fairly common; my personal transistor gig rig is 1500 watts, and that kind of power wasn’t even conceived of 40 years ago. Modern bass amplification requires big power woofers.

Here’s my point; the transducer technology that produced those sweet toned, low powered, woofers doesn’t really exist anymore. There is no current production replacement driver for a D/K 140, an Altec 421, a Goodmans, etc.
Guitar players, which constitute by far the majority of MI gear, have vintage replacement options; they can still get a nice new quality AlNiCo driver. Bass players can’t really utilize these because even the few 15” drivers available have an xmax <1 mm, sometimes <.5 mm so won’t move any air, and the big excursion woofers available currently are rated at 400+ watts and I don’t care what “sensitivity” they may be rated at, if a woofer can handle 500 watt RMS it’s going to be a freekin’ slug with a 120 watt amp driving it. You can find cheap stamped frame woofers that move a little, but the top shelf musical tone quality, ultra high efficiency 15” driver for bass guitar has pretty much gone the way of the Dodo bird.
This is not to say that modern drivers don’t sound good; they do. They just don’t have that “musical” tonal quality of the dinosaurs, and never will. The market for those old school drivers is so insignificant that it doesn’t make fiscal sense for anyone to produce them.
I’ve spent literally hours upon hours A/B’ing pretty much every current high end 15” woofer side by side with D and K140 drivers in various Thiele designed, Sunn designed, Trace Elliot designed, Orange designed, etc. cabs when I participated in the testing for the Reeves 115 cab. Back and forth like an eye examination (do your prefer this… or this? This… or this?) with someone switching cabs while I played the same licks over and over and over. Some of the new drivers sounded very good indeed, and all of them could take the big Reeves wide open without farting, while the amp could have literally shredded the JBL’s at will.
However, none of the new drivers had that musical magic of the AlNiCo JBLs at moderate volume, and as far as sheer SPL, clean the JBL hung with the big boys; albeit at much lower power output levels. That “efficiency” thing again…
It’s also not just my observation. Not only were we in a studio using test equipment, there were other well known players involved whom I’m not really at liberty to name, suffice to say that I was almost too intimidated to play in front of them. I got to come along pretty much because of my access to mint vintage drivers to use for comparison. The point is, everyone was in agreement that the old drivers were tonally superior, the D140F the absolute winner, even though if a true D140F clone were available it wouldn’t have been used in the production Reeves 115 because of its low power handling.

So, to wind up another long winded Ed post…
If you are looking for a modern driver to emulate the tone of a 2000S rig in all its glory; I would say to bite the bullet and get some K140’s. I’ve run a two cab 2000S rig loaded with them at deafening volume with zero farting, I’ve also got a two cab D140F loaded 2000S rig but wide open you can detect a touch of bottoming out, albeit at levels that most venues wouldn’t allow anyway. The D’s are a little sweeter IMO, but the K’s sound magnificent and take about twice the power. I’ve also run Altec, EVM’s, EVSRO’s and CTS 15’s in gig settings in 2000S rigs, and while none sound bad, none have the same magic as the JBL’s.
If you don’t care to emulate the tone of yesteryear, and just want a good sounding 2000s rig there are lots of choices. My suggestions for modern drivers would be in the $200-$300 range, but it seems by your post that you want to stay significantly under that price point.
As I said I can’t speak to Eminence specifically, but I’m sure they will do just fine, also they will likely be the most reasonable $$. Call them and ask, they are very user friendly, just tell them what you want to do what you want to spend, and they will steer you in the right direction.
Eminence didn’t get the call to develop the Reeves bass driver (they do however custom manufacture the Reeves “Vintage Purple” guitar driver and about a million other OEM drivers), but as I inferred above, IMO they are a first rate outfit all in all.

One more plug for “old school”. “New” drivers have unquestionable benefits as far as practicality, cost and maintenance. However… Although nice K140’s will cost $200-$300, they will still be worth that down the road. As they get scarcer, history would dictate that they will actually increase in value.
The same can’t be said for modern drivers.

Offline Jeff Troy

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 150
Re: Eminence in 2000S Cabinets
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2011, 07:17:53 pm »
Hey, Chev and Ed,

Thank you both for two excellent opinions, exactly what I was looking for.

Chev, the Legends you wrote about are the ones I was looking at. I have lesser Eminence 15's in my 415M and am very pleased with how they project my Armstrong bass. The greatest surprise was plugging in one of my Stratocasters, cranking it up a bit and getting an absolutely amazing guitar sound with the same 200S (not 2000S) head.

Ed, I was truly hoping to hear from you since your posting is always specifically knowledgeable and your explanations concise. Nothing like a guy who clearly knows his sh*t and is generous enough to use it helping others. I can't really remember exactly the old 2/4 2000S sounded like because I mostly used it with a Precision Bass up until the time it was all stolen. I ran the rig with the Armstrong, maybe for a year or two, but I can only remember that I never really thought that much of the 421As.

My 2000S bass cabs never had JBLs, so I can't say how they would have suited me, but the JBL 12s in my '74 Twin Reverb are fabulous. I used to play a lot 1950s/60s guitar, and nothing compares to my Fender Mustang and the JBL Twin for driving Ventures leads and unsurpassed clarity in punchy rhythm patterns. I've even done some small-room gigs playing bass through the Twin, and the tubey warmth positively makes the Arnstrong sing. Sustain is amazing (super important for my style), and the volume-induced distortion punches with an edge instead of a mask. The idea of using any kind of a pedal on a bass amp is just way too foreign for an old-school player like me to consider; I've never heard a pedal that didn't choke the timber and delivery of the instrument.

I'm not playing out, not now anyway, but if and when I do, I can't imagine ever really needing a 2000S with two cabinets in any local situation. I just want to have it -- "just in case." Practicality is why I have the 200S and a selection of bass enclosures that includes a 115, Sorado 215 and a 415M.

Anyway, you've both given me what I need to work toward a decision. I'll mull it all over for awhile and build the cabinets while I'm making up my mind. I'm presently leaning toward a pair of Legends in one cabinet to see how they sound with the Armstrong. If they fall short of what I'm looking for, I can try to find a pair of K-140s for the other cab. A good A/B of both speakers in those cabs should tell me which pair will need to be be replaced. I'll put whatever I pull out into the Sorado 215, which currently has a pair of pretty old and farty Sunn Transducers that I don't much care for at all.

Thank you both for all your help. This site is so very helpful.

Warmest regards,
759 New Holland Ave.
Lancaster PA 17602
C: 717-917-3670
www.bandmix.com/jefftroy
www.jefftroy.com (under construction)

Offline warandhairstyle

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 113
Re: Eminence in 2000S Cabinets
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2011, 09:08:25 am »
ED, I was wondering if you had tried out Weber speakers in your comparison.  Specifically, their "NeoMag" series, which are rated at 75W, and are designed to replicate the D130 and D140 speakers.  I was too cheap to buy these recently, and went with Legends instead, but I'd love to get your thoughts on them - either in experience or just in principle. 

https://taweber.powweb.com/weber/neo15.htm

https://taweber.powweb.com/weber/

Great info being tossed around here.  Thanks guys!
When life gives you lemons, buy amplifiers.

Offline EdBass

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,914
Re: Eminence in 2000S Cabinets
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2011, 11:28:22 am »
No, we didn't try the Webers. The bass cab that we were working on needed a driver with at least a 300 watt minimum rating to give it marketability in the "big power" world we live in today, as I referenced previously. The reason for the D's and K's being there was to use them as a tonal frame of reference, and since I had actual D's and K's to use the Webers would have been redundant, probably even a distraction from our "mission".
Also, I don't think those neo's existed back when we did did the testing.

The testing I described was "Part 1"; choosing the best suited stock driver/manufactuter for the job.
"Part 2"; tweeking the chosen driver's VC, surrounds and cone structure/composition was what took the most amount of time. Of course, actually winding voice coils, gluing different surrounds to different cones and so forth was WAY beyond anything I/we would even consider doing ourselves, so after the "chosen one" was picked I spent the time with it and the D140F in identical cabs, AB'ing and making copious notes.
When I/we were satisfied, off the driver would go back to the manufacturer’s R&D dept. for tweaking. I’d get a call asking me things like “by a little harsh in the upper mids, do you mean bright, clanky, or just sort of staccato?” and such. They would tweak, send it back, and we would do it all again. Took weeks, and I was loving every minute of it. :-D

What we ended up with was pretty much a slightly smoother and warmer sounding EVM15L with enhanced low end extension and very JBLish upper mids and highs.
Sounds great IMO, but I’m a little biased, and remember; tone is in the ear of the beholder. What I post is my opinion, and you know what they say about “opinions and rectums” being so similar… I hear clips all the time and think “What are they thinking? That sounds like garbage!”, and I have no doubt that others hear my tone and think exactly the same thing. :wink:

I would really like to try out one of those Webers, but it would be hard to justify coughing up the $180 when I don’t have a reason other than curiosity, already have a boatload of the “real deals”, and can get more of the vintage ones for just a few more shekels. If any members pony up for one of them, or already has one/some of them, please post away!

Offline D.M.N.

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 199
Re: Eminence in 2000S Cabinets
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2011, 07:11:41 pm »
Hey Ed,

Those Reeves speakers you worked on sound pretty cool, do you know if there is a way to buy just the speakers? Since I use a Bassman 300 with my 2000s cabs as well, it might be nice to have speakers with a higher rating that still have similar characteristics to the JBLs and EVMs.
House of the Rising Sunn........
-----------------------------------
1969 2000s
1972 2000s
1970 1200s
1968 1000s
1969 200s
2010 2000s DIY 2x15
1971 2000s 2x15
1969 2000s 2x15
1972 2000s 2x15
1968 1000s 2x15
1970 1200s 6x12