Author Topic: Beta head with 412L cabs??  (Read 3462 times)

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Offline Andy's Junky Music

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Beta head with 412L cabs??
« on: October 03, 2006, 10:55:30 pm »
So I picked up a sunn412L from daddys junky music and im really excited to start using it and I wanted to play it with a beta lead BUT...the cab runs at 8 ohms and from what I've seen both beta bass and lead heads run at 4 ohms.  so how am i supposed to run them together?!  I dont mind safe mismatching but I dont get why sunn would do that?  any thoughts?

Offline n!k

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Re: Beta head with 412L cabs??
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2006, 01:06:41 am »
There's one for sale in Kenosha, Wisconsin on music go round for $199. I actually bought my Coliseum Bass
head from these guys. They will ship and they package well.

http://www.musicgoround.com/gear/inventorydetails.asp?id=480293

Buy two and run at 4 ohms  :-D
My Sunn Amp:
1971 "Coliseum" Model T (Prototype, Made in Portland)

Offline feel the sunn

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Re: Beta head with 412L cabs??
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2006, 01:52:23 am »
you won't have any problems with a 8 ohm cab and a beta lead.

rick.heil

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Re: Beta head with 412L cabs??
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2006, 07:39:27 am »
solid state amps (like the beta series) are very tolerant of ohm-age mismatch, especially if its in the area of 100%.  I wouldn't worry too much about running an 8-ohm cab.

Offline JoeArthur

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Re: Beta head with 412L cabs??
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2006, 08:29:04 am »

It's not really a mismatch per se - the Minimum Impedance for a beta is 4 ohms, and that's the impedance where the beta will develop 100 watts.

An 8 ohm load will decrease the power rating to approximately 65 percent of the 4 ohm rating - so the beta will develop about 65 watts.

In terms of loudness, this is less than a 3db volume drop and will probably never be noticed - at least I never did.

rick.heil

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Re: Beta head with 412L cabs??
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2006, 12:09:23 pm »
ah! thanks joe, I never knew that was considered a "minimum" and not a recommended.

thanks!

p.s......at risk of sounding like a total noob, what is the formula you're using to get the watts/impedence/db results? I've seen a lot of talk about that, and I can't remember that part of the physics lessons.

Offline JoeArthur

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Re: Beta head with 412L cabs??
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2006, 03:06:37 pm »
Rick,

Well, it's not all formula.  I'm lazy.

The first one is the basic power formula:  Watts = voltage * amps. But to use that you need to know the current through the speaker load.  If you factor that around with a little algebra and the above formula, you'll eventually come up with the one I use the most because of my laziness:  Watts = (voltage squared) / impedance.

Working that backwards (i.e. solving for the unknown voltage) for the beta at 4 ohms, you'll get 100 watts at 4 ohms = 100 * 4 = 400 and taking the square root of that... you get 20 volts.  So across a 4 ohm load the beta delivers a 20 volt signal for a 100 watt output.

Ok... now let's take that 20 volt signal, square it to get 400 and now divide by an 8 ohm load and we'll get... 50 watts?  Yep absolutely correct.

What about that 65 watts?  Well, that is a "rule of thumb" and takes into account things that the power formula doesn't consider. For instance:

With a 50% load (8 ohms is less of a load than 4 ohms), 50% less current is needed.  Use that first equation I don't use.  That equation also assumes the voltage remains the same and under that assumption, the current for 1/2 the power is 1/2 the current.

So... the power amp is required to deliver only 1/2 the current. With less of a current requirement, the supply voltage to the power amp will sag less, maintaing a higher voltage. 

Also, with less current through the output transistors, the voltage drop across those transistors will also be less.  Both of those aspects provide more voltage for the power amp to work with.

One extra thing. You know how some people claim that tubes "round" the output when overdriven but transistors clip cleanly when overdriven?  Yeah, that one - totally false. 

Look at any spec sheet for your favorite output transistor and find a graph typically called "collector current vs Beta". Beta is a term used for the current gain of a transistor, and... (typically) as more current is drawn through a transistor, the lower the Beta (or gain) of the device.  Conversely, the lower the current, the higher the gain.

Factor these things in together (higher supply voltage and higher gain of the output transistors), and you wind up with the power amp being able to deliver approximately 15% higher output voltage into that 50% less load.

Going back to our 100 watt into 4 ohms being 20 volts and factoring in the above and doing the math we now get 23 volts (15% more) into 8 ohms... roughly 66 watts.

Since the math is easier, the 65% I gave is a rule of thumb.

The power to db... another rule of thumb.  Less than 3 db is pretty much useless, which is good because the rule of thumb requires you to memorize two relationships.

A 3db increase is twice the power... a 10db increase is ten times the power.  Add to that that 3db will be barely noticed and that 10db will be twice as loud.

So... a 6db increase becomes a 4 times increase in power, a 9db increase becomes an 8 times increase in power... and now we are at 10db. But if you wanted to continue the previous sequence, a 12 db increase would be a 16 times increase in power.

If necessity is the mother of invention, then surely laziness is the papa!!