Author Topic: Power tube rattling in my 2000s???  (Read 4726 times)

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Offline shoegazin3056

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Power tube rattling in my 2000s???
« on: January 20, 2008, 08:50:07 am »
Hey~

   I recently picked up a 1969 2000s with matching speakers in really great condition. I love the tone I get from this bad boy and I hope to at least use the head for gigging soon.

   I've been having some problems hearing rattling from the tubes. Its a metal on metal or metal on glass type sound. Its very faint and I can only detect it when playing certain notes. I had originally suspected it was a microphonic preamp tube, but I've since ruled that out as a possibility. I'm bringing it to a tech on tuesday to have a 3 prong power cord installed, but I'm hoping to avoid having him rip the entire thing open if necessary.

   The tubes it came with are ARS 6550s that are made in china. When I hear the buzzing, I can place my finger on a tube and muffle it a little bit, so I'm guessing its either parts in the tube itself or a loose part connected to the tube.

Can anyone recommend anything I can do???

-tyler

PS, what is the "death cap" people keep talking about? Should I have that removed on tuesday when I have the new cord installed?

Offline djc

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Re: Power tube rattling in my 2000s???
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2008, 06:31:15 pm »
death cap. 
if you touch the capacitor leads without discharging first you're dead.  I'd guess that is what they meant.
to put a 3-prong grounded plug on your tech needs to get inside
if he's worth his weight in anything he'll test caps and such while he's in there

Offline EdBass

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Re: Power tube rattling in my 2000s???
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2008, 07:44:03 pm »
I think the term "Death Cap" may be a little ambitious, kind of an urban legend. I suppose a big filter cap could kill you, but I think it would take just the right scenario, probably involving your heart in the middle of a circuit using your hands as "test leads". Without question, the potential exists to do physical damage; the inside of a big amp isn't a good place to be poking around if you don't know what you're doing.

If nothing else, using your body to discharge a capacitor will definitely get your attention.

Is the rattling sound coming from the amp chassis itself, or is it coming through the speakers? If it's a mechanical rattling (coming from the amp chassis, not through the speakers), it probably is something loose.
My guess would be the tube socket.

Should be child's play for your tech to fix.

Offline shoegazin3056

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Re: Power tube rattling in my 2000s???
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2008, 08:34:45 pm »
It almost sounds like its coming through both the amp and the speaker at the same time....?

I'll try it with my other cab tomorrow and see.

Offline JoeArthur

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Re: Power tube rattling in my 2000s???
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2008, 09:08:21 am »

The term "death cap" is a slang term. It refers to the small capacitor (usually .022-.047 µF rated 400-600 volts) used to ground one side of the AC line to the chassis.

The cap may be switchable from one side of the AC line to the other - with a switch called "polarity", "ground" or "line" sometimes optionally followed by the word "reverse".

An amp will produce less noise with the proper side of the AC line grounded. The switch was a good thing to have back in the old days of two prong plugs since you didn't have to physically reverse the plug in the AC outlet to properly ground the AC line.

http://sunn.ampage.org/site/schematics/220s.gif

If you open this link to a 200s schematic on the lower right hand side, you can see a .05 µF 600 volt cap (the two short parallel vertical lines) connected between the chassis (three slanty parallel lines) and the common side of a two position switch, with a position connected to one or the other side of the AC line (the two lines coming from the thing that sort of looks like a two prong electrical plug with 117V 60HZ opposite it).

http://sunn.ampage.org/site/schematics/modelt.gif

Now open the model T schematic and scroll down to the lower left hand side. C14 is the "death cap" in this schematic (rated at .047 and 600 Volts) and S2 is the polarity switch. This schematic switch uses the horizontal lines that get smaller as the ground symbol.

Now notice the plug - this is a three prong plug, and the line (wire) labeled GRN is connected directly to ground. This is really all you do when installing a three prong plug - the black and white wires go to whereever the existing black and white wires go, and the "new" green wire is secured directly to the chassis usually with a bolt or screw. The green line is connected to the round center "ground" at the plug side of the wire.

This should properly ground our chassis - assuming that the plug is inserted into a properly grounded socket.

PS, what is the "death cap" people keep talking about? Should I have that removed on tuesday when I have the new cord installed?

Now the question makes sense?  :-D

The model T grounds the chassis both ways - through the three prong plug and the polarity switch through the cap. Why? ... well, the model T was introduced in a transition period in terms of AC wiring - some places may not have been wired (at the time) with three prong AC sockets. Other amps produced during this transition period may have used a three position ground switch, with the center position disconnecting the cap completely from the AC line (such as Fender).

In theory at least, every place you are likely to play the amp should be wired properly with 3 prong outlets. If this is true, having the cap is redundant to the three prong plug and it (and the switch if desired) can be removed.

Pointless trivia: Fender, on it's reissue amps, keeps the ground switch for the vintage looks but it is completely non-functional.

===

FWIW: I estimate a 95 percent chance that the rattle is a tube. Very low quality of tubes these days and I have had more than my share of microphonic ones.

Offline shoegazin3056

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Re: Power tube rattling in my 2000s???
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2008, 11:48:50 am »
Wow! Thanks for the great replies/info.

Makes 10 times more sense now. Before I figured it was just a cap that when faulty could kill you.

About the tubes: I tried using my other cabinet, and there wasnt any rattling (also because the amp wasnt placed on top) So I'm 100% positive that the rattling is just something loose in the amp itself, and I'll have the tech tighten everything up and give me the low down on those tubes in there.

I was especially happy that nothing was wrong with the Sunn 2x15 cab.

Also, the transformers hum quietly when the amp power is on, is that normal??? I assume it is.

OH also, I'm guessing the speaker cabinet is rated to match the amp at most volumes. I've been using it at mid volume (4-5) at band practice, and I've noticed that the speakers move a LOTT compared to my 4x10. I'm guessing that this is also normal, but I just want to make sure I'm not going to blow anything. I love the way they sound, and I'm trying not to baby them, but I'm still paranoid.

Offline Soundmasterg

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Re: Power tube rattling in my 2000s???
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2008, 02:11:33 pm »
A 10 inch speaker won't move as much as a 15 inch speaker since the cone is much smaller. I'm sure its fine as long as it sounds ok. Just be careful about the power level you put into those JBL's as they can't handle the typical 300 watts that a lot of these newer style bass woofers can handle. Remember that big ass speaker in Back to the Future? Thats a speaker where you might be a little more concerned about cone movement!

One thing I wanted to add to what Joe said. Back in the day with the old style wiring, they would put the fuse and the switch on opposite sides of the AC. SO the hot side might get the switch and the neutral side might get the fuse. With today's 3 wire setup and when switching vintage amps to it, the fuse and switch should both be put on the hot side of the AC line for safety reasons. It will work if you don't, but in the event of a fault condition, it is safer to have them both on the hot line. Also, with today's 3 wire setup, the "death cap" isn't really needed anymore and many amp makers don't include it in their designs.

Greg

Offline JoeArthur

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Re: Power tube rattling in my 2000s???
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2008, 04:52:24 pm »
A 10 inch speaker won't move as much as a 15 inch speaker since the cone is much smaller. I'm sure its fine as long as it sounds ok.

I'm not much of a speaker ex-spurt... but I can't see any reason why the xmax would be related to the diameter of the cone.

Offline Soundmasterg

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Re: Power tube rattling in my 2000s???
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2008, 06:06:54 pm »
Well what I mean is that if you put a given signal into two speakers, one being a 10 inch speaker and the other being a 15 inch speaker, the 15's cone will appear to move more since the cone is bigger. Obviously it depends on the possible depth of the travel of the speaker cone itself, and maybe some 10 inch speakers are made that will have a larger xmax than your typical 15 inch JBL, but the 10's cone is smaller so it can move faster and won't look to the eye that it is moving as much. I was mainly talking about the poster's comment about his 15 inch JBL's moving more than his 4x10 and not trying to generalize about all 10's or 15's, so pardon me if I gave that impression.

Offline shoegazin3056

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Re: Power tube rattling in my 2000s???
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2008, 12:05:14 pm »
So I got the power cord changed, and there was a loose washing inside the amp that the tech tightened for me.

But there's still a noise, its not a rattle really anymore. Its more of a high pitched "tink" overtone on certain notes I play.

It seems like its worse when I have the head on top of the cab. Is this a bad preamp tube?? When I use it with my other cab it doesnt seem nearly as bad (but the head isnt on top)

I dont think its the speaker cab...it doesnt sound like I'm driving the speakers too hard at all. It sounds more like the amp....

Offline mckinnon audio

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Re: Power tube rattling in my 2000s???
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2008, 01:13:32 pm »
  Hi there,fire the amp up without any input plugged in,and tap the tubes one at a time with a toothbrush with the volume up,if it's a microphonic tube you'll hear it no prob. Good luck, Mel.

Offline shoegazin3056

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Re: Power tube rattling in my 2000s???
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2008, 02:06:50 pm »
I tried the cab with my other amp.

And its definately the speakers making the high pitched noise....hmmm crap.

Offline mckinnon audio

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Re: Power tube rattling in my 2000s???
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2008, 02:33:26 pm »
  Hi there,if it's definatley the spkr.,you'll need to take it out of the cab. and sweep it with an amp and audio generater. Usually those types of sounds from a spkr. mean either a loose former or voice coil related part, maybe the spkr. is partially worn out or it could have been reconed improperly if it's not orig. It doesn't sound like a rubbing or chafing by your description,but I can't hear it so this is an educated guess at best. Hope it's just 1 spkr. and not both,good luck Mel.