Sunn Cabinet Speakers

[Jr]

does anybody know what kind of speakers the sunn cabs used back in the day

[coliseumboy]

I know in my 4x10 they were Eminces, and in both my 1x18 their are Cerwin Vegas.

[Soundmasterg]

In the late 60's/early 70's, they were usually JBL from what I've heard and seen. JBL's aren't made anymore and so are worth a bit. They sound really nice too for cleaner stuff, especially bass, and are quite efficient too.
Greg

[Isaac]

JBLs aren't made anymore? That'll come as a surprise to JBL!

Now, the alnico V D series hasn't been made for years, and the K series that followed has been superseded by the E series, but JBL is very much still around. See www.jblpro.com for info.

[Don T.]

Hello:
 From the mid 70's and up Sunn made their own speakers in Williamstown Kentucky and later (82) at the Tualatin plant. When Fender bought Sunn they went back to Eminence.

[tube]

don t.

would you credit the square alnico v magnet structure with the distinctive sound of those speakers manufactured in kentucky? the magnetic flux created by a square magnet and it's effect on a round voice coil imparts an odd quality to the electromechanical transfer to the voice coil (which is round.) modern speakers generally use higher strength, round magnets and generally don't sound like older drivers.

i've also heard that the crystalline structure of "seasoned" (O2 saturated) copper wire in speakers and pickups accounts for the preferred tonal response of vintage gear.

your thoughts?

best regards, tube

[Anonymous]

Gee Tube... where do you get some of this voodoo stuff from?  Partaking in something else crystalized?  

The magnetic flux that the voice coil of a speaker "cares about" is not determined by the shape of whatever magnet source provides that flux.  The flux is directed and focused around the voice coil by the magnetic conductive material that makes up the magnet "structure".  Well designed magnetic structures prevent very little leakage of the magnetic flux to anyplace outside the voice coil area, and any that does leak out is wasted.  Only in the waste is the voice coil "affected", but only because it can't work against that waste to provide movement to produce sound.

O2 saturated copper wire?  That would be like copper wire that has "rusted"... turning that green color that you see on things like old copper roofs.  For that to happen, the copper wire in the pickup would have to have lost it's insulation.  Shorted windings don't sound like a good prescription for tone to me.

I would think this... that over time, as the magnetic material weakens, the ability to produce or reproduce high frequencies diminishes, resulting in a more mellow tone.

But of course that explanation ain't got no magical qualities to it...  

[Don T.]

Hello;
 Older speakers sound different for a lot of reasons. Spyders are looser, surrounds may be distorted and actually, new design speakers are using low O2 copper wire. Copper strands formed in an oxygen free environment have more free electrons on their surface so they have less resistance per foot than regular wire. More current & less heat are the benefits. You can wind a tighter coil and have less distance in the flux gap so the speaker will have better transient response. When it comes to guitar speakers there ain't much new under the sunn. The secret to speakers is that you have to find ones that match your amp. Some amps may produce ripping high end and sound better with a soft felt dust cap to smooth out the highs. Amps with flater response will sound better with a hard paper dust cap glued directly to the voice coil. When you need to accentuate the highs use a thin mesh dust cap that lets you hear the voice coil. In Sunn's case they used aluminum dust caps to give the speaker a peak in the 3k to 5k range. Add some crease rings to decouple the outer portion of the speaker cone and you have more mids (like the alnico fender 10's and the sunn copies of the fender used in the beta 410 cab).
In the past I have changed from one dust cap to another on my setup just  to get the sound I'm after. I added dampner to the surround to add mass and stop the surround from buzzing and distorting. I got a cleaner sound with more bass. If you put white glue on the surround you stiffen the speaker and raise the resonant freq.
Oh well, I'm perseverating so I'll stop now.
Don T.

[tube]

"Gee Tube... where do you get some of this voodoo stuff from? Partaking in something else crystalized?   "

hehe, i don't know, maybe 30 years working in the world's largest contract research and development laboratories. although it was founded as a metallurgical lab, i work in thermal dynamics, specialize in high speed data acquisition and work with guys into other engineering disciplines, chemistry, physics and medicine.

do you really think that an electrical insulating material prevents oxygen on a molecular level from permeating copper? did you sleep through your physics labs on the days they discussed magnetic field propagation?

i guess some people still call science voodoo     i did like the "eyepop" after crystallized, hehe.

best regards, tube

[Soundmasterg]

Hey Isaac, I meant to say that the D series JBL's aren't made anymore, but of course I posted when I was half asleep and thats usually when mistakes happen!

[ancient amp tech]

I just love it when Scientists think they know everything...Thank God the magnetic properties of my JBL D-130's are in flux...and they're receiving enough oxygen...or I'd be in a real mess.
                                    Dave Foxx (lowly Electronics Engineer)

[tube]

"Dave Foxx (lowly Electronics Engineer) "

hi dave,

glad to have you here. nothing like a lively discourse to make things fun! we share the same vocation but apparently not the same opinion of science.

after a 6 year stint in the navy doing shipboard radar tracking and targeting systems, along with a very generous V.A. educational benefit, i went to OSU so long i got a BSEE by default. ahh, the salad days - best 12 years of my life. along the way i met lots of interesting people like aando perandi, the guy who did all the upgrade mods to van alstine modified dynaco audio equipment using banks of small capacitors to replace those huge electrolytics. whoever would have guessed that the replacement of the original high ESR power supply caps, the darlings of the power supply designers of the period, would alter the sound of the original amps? that was before the industry placed any stock in "scientific voodoo."

when you consider all the factors that affect the operation of any transducer, whether it's a loudspeaker, guitar pickup, microphone, or a record player needle and cartridge, you cannot deny that there are measurable and sonically noticeable differences among all of them.

it's possible to quantify those differences, and people with a trained ear are able to differentiate the sonic qualities. while this is primarily an "artist's" forum entertaining discussion among people who, in particular, like sunn equipment for it's sound, i ask you this.

what science or voodoo or quirk of nature accounts for your appreciation of JBL D130 speakers (with low oxygen copper windings or vintage coils seasoned by years of heat and vibration enabled work hardening and a green patina of cupric oxide, who gives a shit?)

if you are into electronics, then you should realize that it's commonly accepted that electrons travel on the outer circumference of conductor. the patina, which is measureable to a few molecules in thickness, that builds up on a conductor with exposure to atmospheric free oxygen over time causes molecular changes in the metal that affect electron flow. does that affect the sound? hell yes! every little thing affects it.

i've known more than one musician who preferred old stock pickups on his axe because "they sounded better."

by the way, if your JBLs ever lose their flux, i highly recommend Orange County Speaker Repair in california. they have a high tech "voodoo" machine that "recharges" magnets to their proper spec. they also provide mechanical repairs (reconing, surrounds, spiders, etc.) taking into consideration the factory specs on compliance, resonance, measured Q, and all that other "science/ voodoo."  

best regards, tube

[Don T.]

Hello:
 I drug out an old 10" Sunn alnico and the magnet is round. In fact it is the pole piece. The square metal pieces just complete the magnetic circuit. The other 10's have a 30oz round ceramic magnet. The ceramic style has way more magnetic strength in the gap. The both use the exact same cone, vc, spyder assy.

[ancient amp tech]

Hi Tube,
            Welcome to the forum..<----famous quote from the gatekeeper to those entering the arena for that day's entertainment  during the peak of the Roman Empire.All of the scientific data you spoke of is quite true.I've been in this nonsense successfully for over 34 years, here on the east coast,keeping musicians going.The particular cabinet,I alluded to,is a 1968 215 rear loaded with JBL D-130's 8 ohm wired in series for the 16 ohm load...What's driving it is a 1969 Sceptre head with Tung Sol 6550's...the dynaco Mark III era.Lots of headroom,plenty of tonal possibilities,very distinctive-difinitive sound of the late 60's for guitar.(Gibson).Musicians language,communicated to me,is laced with adjectives/nouns/pronouns/and expletive phrases..(diagnostically)ex:mushy,flappy,thin,midrangy,knock your head off treble,buzzy,humming out of tune,doesn't kick ass,cuts out,not loud enough..and so on..<on the negative side..positive side>( after the surgery) bad to the bone,smokin',jimmy page,awesome,killer tone,never sounded better,made me come,I play so much better now...and so on.You have to multi-task and play the roles of psychiatrist,magician,politician,physician,and do it with psychic vision.I've been a guitarist since 1966,so my approach starts from there,goes thru the matrix,and finally ends there.Just sort of the capsulated version.I generally recommend,to those that are JBL particular,to have them reconed by one of the best guys I know on the east coast whom uses real JBL kits.I know folks who won't use anything other than their favorite Peavey,Fender,Marshall,Vox,Sunn,Line 6,Orange,or Ampeg..who swear by them...and of course a great deal depends on what and how they play.There's truth to the statement that beauty is in the ears of the beholder.I enjoy resurrecting old Sunn gear,putting it back out there for people to use,where they may rediscover some of the nuances.It's nice to watch people smile.Lotta people whom use this site are simply searching for answers,communing with each other,appreciating the quality that went into Sunn gear,sharing/exchanging ideas,if for no other reason because they love what they do.It's always cool to communicate with folks on the other side of the country..education is a lifelong process...never too old to learn...and I still like it loud.
                                        Dave Foxx