Author Topic: Is this 200s worth saving?  (Read 4006 times)

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Offline jonmyers

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Is this 200s worth saving?
« on: July 11, 2005, 05:19:47 pm »
I got into my buddy’s car and said, “Hey, you got an old Sunn amp in your backseat.”  He says, “Yeah, it’s been in a barn for 20 years, you want it?”

So I took it home and looked it over.  It looks like it’s in pretty bad shape, but I don’t know if it’s too far gone.  I don’t know anything about tube amps (other than how to plug a guitar into one), or much about electricity for that matter; I figured I could monkey around with this amp.

Here’s what I’ve done – went out and bought two new electrolytic caps (I looked over this website quite a bit before doing anything – thanks for giving me a place to start).  Bought some cleaners, alligator clips, fuses and new fuse container.  Started taking off the copious amounts of rust with a grinder (to debatable ends; the rust might actually have looked cooler…).

Next to the tube socket on the far right (if you are looking at the front of the amp), written in a black sharpie many years ago, are the words, “this tube is not 6AV5 which was in socket – this likely burned out power trans.”  The words “power trans” were nearly unreadable (it actually took some time to decipher most of the words), and it wasn’t until I unearthed the words “likely out” hidden under rust directly next to the power transformer itself that I was certain of the wording near the socket.

This is when I stopped cleaning the amp.

If the power trans is out, and given the condition of the amp, is this really worth working on?  I don’t really want to spend much more than say, 150 bucks on the whole thing (ok, I’d probably be willing to spend more after I’ve already spent 150 or so… you know how it is).  

What do you say?

Jonmyers

ps – inside the amp, written in red grease pencil, is the number 33, and then below it, what looks like, DRB, Etest, 111269.  Does this mean the amp was made in 69?

I’l try to post some pics

Offline jonmyers

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Is this 200s worth saving?
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2005, 05:22:29 pm »
fyi - there is an absolutely obscene amount of rust under the power trans.

jonmyers[/img]

Offline Isaac

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Is this 200s worth saving?
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2005, 06:29:51 pm »
Be careful! Monkeying around with tube amps can get monkeys killed. Taking rust off is one thing, but messing around with high voltage electronics is quite another.
Isaac

Offline Soundmasterg

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Is this 200s worth saving?
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2005, 11:36:20 pm »
If you have to use a grinder to get the rust off, it doesn't sound good. That metal on the chassis would have been galvanized steel, and a grinder will get rid of the galvanizing, so it will rust even more pretty soon unless you protect it. You should be using something like POR 15 and its companion rust remver stuff...I can't remember what it is called. You just spray it on, and then wait 20 min and wipe it off, and the rust has turned into something you can sand down a little and paint over. They use it in car restorations and anyplace that sells supplies for that type of thing should carry the POR 15 rust remover stuff.

If the transformers are rusted, then they may be shorted internally between the plates of the transformer. This makes the voltage go high, and the current capability go down, and if it is very bad, then the transformer will be unusable due to the rust. If all depends on how far gone it is. It is possible to see if the transformers still work or not, but it requires some test equipment. At the very least, a signal generator of some sort, and a DMM. You can buy new replacement transformers for Sunns at Triode Electronics and they are exact to original specs, but with more current capability.

Last but not least, if you have never worked on a tube amp before with the internal wiring, BE VERY CAREFUL, and preferably learn a bit about the proper procedures before you try it. It can and will kill you even if it hasn't been plugged in for 20 years. The caps hold a charge on them, and if you touch the wrong place inside the amp, this charge tries to go through your body, and your heart, on its way to ground. If there is enough current or voltage there, you can die. So please, be very careful!

Pics would help tremendously if you can get them.

Greg

Offline protoz

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Is this 200s worth saving?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2005, 05:12:42 pm »
200S amps are great amps.  If you are really wanting to get it running take it to a tech and buy a new tranny off of Ebay, replacements pop up every so often for $80.

Get all the tubes replaced just in case because it has been sitting for so long they are probably not in the best of shape from sitting in a farm.

Since you took a grinder to the metal you may as well paint over it now to seal it in.

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Is this 200s worth saving?
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2005, 07:11:51 pm »
Alright, took me a couple of days, but I have pictures up.

http://photos.yahoo.com/activestat

Take a look at the amp and tell me what you think.  The rust is heaviest on the bottom, just below the transformer.

These pics are before I ground the rust off.  I should say that I was using a steel wool attachment to grind off the rust (not an actual grinding wheel).  

Greg, can I use POR 15 on the underside where all the electronics are (like right below the transformer)?

I appreciate the warnings that you have given, Isaac and Greg.  They are necessary things to say.  I have “researched” (translation: spent copious amounts of time surfing the web) this project and think it is something I could do safely (for instance, the first thing I did was to discharge the caps).  This doesn’t mean that this is not beyond me; hence the orig post.  

Given the possible state of the transformer, is this worth doing?  Protoz seems to say yes.  Next question, is this something I can do.  Sounds like most of it is swapping parts; I’m thinking yes?

jonmyers

Offline Isaac

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Is this 200s worth saving?
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2005, 10:14:04 pm »
If you have any electronics knowledge or aptitude at all, then yes, I think it's something you can do. I'm assuming you're a bass player, yes? Because the 200S is not a guitar amp. that's not to say it wouldn't make a decent one, if you like the sound, of course.
Isaac

Offline Soundmasterg

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Is this 200s worth saving?
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2005, 01:12:45 pm »
Wow, that thing is rusty! I wouldn't really worry about the rust on the chassis per se, although you should clean it up, but the rust on the transformer would be more of a concern. When an output transformer rusts liek that, it rusts internally too, and the plates inside short together, causing it to fail. If it hasn't failed yet, it will.

The stuff I was talking about is made by the same people as POR 15, but its a rust remover thing, I can't recall the name offhand. POR 15 is a black, sticky substance that you put on metal to protect it once the rust is gone, like on a car restoration or something like that. All you need is the rust remover stuff, whatever it is called. You just spray it on, then wait a bit, and then wipe it off, and the rust is now a dark brownish, gray color and you can sand it smooth. You could use it inside the chassis, but you would have to take all the parts out before you did so as it would ruin most of them because of its acidic content.

What I would probably do, would be to get a large sheet of paper, and draw out the layout and label all the parts. Like R1, R1, C1, C2, etc. Draw out all the wiring connections and colors of wire, and then you can use that, and your pics to put it back together after you have cleaned it up. Then go ahead and take everything out, and take the faceplate off the front, so you have just the bare chassis. Then get the rust removal stuff and spray it on, wipe off, sand, spray on, wipe off, sand, etc, until the chassis looks like all the rust is gone. And try not to get the stuff in the tube sockets, or you'll have to replace them too. Then you can spray some clear rust-olium over the whole chassis so it won't rust again. Then put it all back together again. You would probably want to get new transformers too, although the rust on the power transformer doesn't look nearly as bad as what is on the output transformer. When you have the transformers disconnected from the circuit, if you have a signal generator, or access to one, and a DMM, you can figure out if the transformers are shorted or not. If you need to replace one, you can get an exact replacement from Triode Electronics.

Doing all of this is pretty much the same as building an amp. It can be done, and if you do it all correctly, it will make a great sounding amp, and you will learn a lot in the process. I did this to a 1970 Sonic 1 that I got off ebay. It is pretty much the same as a 200S, so I made it into a 200S since the labelling was all worn off. It works and sounds great, after a complete rebuild by me. Mine wasn't as rusty as yours, and was complete, but didn't work right. After replacing every single ressitor and cap in the amp, and making some tasteful mods, it works really well and I learned a lot too.

You'll find if you decide to go this route and rebuild the whole thing that modern resistors won't fit in the center section above the 6an8 tube because the leads are too short, unless you use 2 watt metal film resistors. The resistors that Ted Weber at webervst sells have longer leads than most, so his 1W resistors might fit. You could also try to find some NOS carbon comp resistors like what was originally used in there, but personally, I think the metal film is a better choice for noise reasons, and it would sound better for a bass amp too. For caps, use whatever you like...most of the modern stuff is light years better than the older caps. I used Sprague 715P polypropylene and Sprague 225P polyester, ceramic, and Xicon electrolytics depending on where in the circuit I was using them. I woudl recommend to not bother with the can cap, and use discrete caps as they are cheaper and will give a better voltage rating as long as you hook them up right. I can provide more details on that and on my Sunn, and some pics if you email me. Good luck!

Offline Fred Cook

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Worth Saving?
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2005, 10:35:27 am »
Absolutely.

If you have the time/knowledge/patience, you will end up with a great amp. The good news is that a Sunn is not a very complex amp.

If not, sell it for a reasonable price. There is someone out there who can save that amp.
Savor the Sawgrass!
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Offline Isaac

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Is this 200s worth saving?
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2005, 02:29:56 pm »
Heck, I can save that amp. As long as the transformers are sound. If not, it will likely be too expensive.
Isaac