Author Topic: Trouble shooting an original Model T  (Read 9866 times)

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Offline brennansrevenge

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Trouble shooting an original Model T
« on: July 26, 2005, 06:34:04 pm »
i've got the wiring diagram, and replaced the transformer and 90% of the circuits, but can't stablize my power transformer.

i'm burning up the R43 330 ohm resister. any thoughts?

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/dcacolici@sbcglobal.net/album?.dir=/4096&.src=ph&.tok=phFOXXDBxkb3AZGo

Offline JoeArthur

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Trouble shooting an original Model T
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2005, 09:21:49 am »
With R43 out of the circuit (and the amp off of course) measure the resistance from the R43 end of CR1 to ground - then reverse your probes and re-measure.

You should get an infinite reading one way, and somewhere between 26k-30K the other way.

If you don't get an infinite reading either way, CR1 is definitely toast.  

If you get less than 26K either way... then unsolder and check the values of R44 and R45.  If you replaced C15 and/or C16 check their polarity.  Positive side goes to ground here.  If that's correct, unsolder one end and check resistance - after an initial charging kick it should approach infinite.

Offline brennansrevenge

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Trouble shooting an original Model T
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2005, 10:47:16 am »
diode CR1 is good.  seems like a have a large current going to ground somewhere?  i can only guess it's a tube causing it?

i'm in the process of retubing, and was wondering if i take out all the tubes can i turn on the amp to see if anything starts to burn?

or will i just burn up the power transformer?

Offline JoeArthur

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Trouble shooting an original Model T
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2005, 10:55:17 am »
You might burn up more than just the power transformer.  This circuit supplies the bias to the output tubes.  When the bias goes, your output tubes and/or output transformer might soon follow.

I assume you have a short here.  Measure the components and you will be able to find it.  

Are you sure you have R43 attached to the proper transformer lead?  Was this transformer another Model T transformer or is it just something you are trying to make work?

Offline brennansrevenge

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Trouble shooting an original Model T
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2005, 06:30:46 pm »
this was a Model T transformer from another vintage unit and i am confident i installed it correctly.

i guess i wanted to isolate the problems by removing the tubes.  to me, the transformer will not be doing anything if there's nothing to do.  it will not move any current.  obviously i want to be very cautious and not ruin anything, so this is why so many questions.

when you say the bias goes?  what does that mean?  it's not set or the pot goes?

Offline brennansrevenge

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Trouble shooting an original Model T
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2005, 06:08:06 am »
now i'm thinking i need to replace the caps on the power supply end, the multi-section can (i did not do this one yet).

does anyone still sell the (2) 80microfarad, 600v cap anymore?

Offline JoeArthur

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Trouble shooting an original Model T
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2005, 11:07:00 am »
You might try www.tubesandmore.com for cap replacements - by the way, that one is rated for 450volts... not 600.

"goes"... as in goes south... goes belly-up... disappears.  Which it will when R43 burns up.  I thought you meant turn it on with the tubes.  I misread.

The bias supply draws very little current - and little if any of that current is actually drawn through the tubes.  If R43 is burning up - then some component after R43 - from CR1 to any ground connection is either shorted... or there is a direct connection to ground.  

You said you replaced 90% of the circuits.  It is very easy to get a wrong value resistor soldered in... such as a 470 ohm replacing a 470K ohm (just an example).

Are you unwilling or unable to make the resistance measurements I suggested?

Offline brennansrevenge

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Trouble shooting an original Model T
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2005, 08:13:46 pm »
i did measure the diode and it's good.  the caps are going the correct direction, and finally readings: R44= 6.5K (10K) and R45=14K(18K)

by the way when i am blowing R43, rated for 1/2w as indicated on the specs, the standby is off, so only the heaters are going.

I checked caps 15, 16, 19, & 20 and they read over 15K of resistance, they build resistance to past 150K.

Offline brennansrevenge

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Trouble shooting an original Model T
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2005, 08:37:33 pm »
alright, i just measured all the caps, and they're good except for this thing.........is it a cap?  i can't really find it in the specs.  on the top it says "1.0H"

see pic.....
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/dcacolici@sbcglobal.net/album?.dir=/4096&.src=ph&.tok=ph36YYDBvqFyAZGo

Offline brennansrevenge

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Trouble shooting an original Model T
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2005, 09:33:19 pm »
just measured R44 and R48 (10K) again, the bias and hum balance and they max out at 7K.  the hum was pretty wacky, jumping because i don't think i've ever turned it!  so i put some spray lube in there and it evened out.

Offline Isaac

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Trouble shooting an original Model T
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2005, 07:02:32 am »
1.0H is a coil, an inductor, with a value of 1.0 henries.

Which model do you have? First generation or second?
Isaac

Offline JoeArthur

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Trouble shooting an original Model T
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2005, 08:03:01 am »
Quote from: Isaac
1.0H is a coil, an inductor, with a value of 1.0 henries.

Which model do you have? First generation or second?


With that inductor, the amp has to be a second generation.

Offline JoeArthur

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Trouble shooting an original Model T
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2005, 08:34:00 am »
brennansrevenge:

As an engineer, you should know that the best way to solve a problem is to approach it with a process - a logical process.  Based on your posts, I have the impression that you are not doing this.  You need to calm down and focus.  

Everyone trying to help you is at a real disadvantage - we cannot see the amp.  You have admitted to changing out some amount of the circuit and even though you swear everything was changed correctly - at least I have a great deal of doubt.  And let me give you the reasons: 1) you don't recognize an inductor. 2) You are using a schematic for an amp that you don't have and may not realize that.  3) You are measuring things that have nothing to do with the problem at hand. and finally 4) the amp would be working if everything was indeed correct.

One good thing is that the schematic is not going to be that far off in the bias circuit - the circuit with the problem.  In order to be burning up R43, there has to be a short circuit to ground somewhere in the bias circuit - and I emphasize - NOT the heater circuit, NOT in the B+ supply and certainly NOT in the circuit around the middle control.

We are only concerned with the bias circuit - that starts with the red/black transformer lead, through R43 and CR1... and further includes C15, R44, R45, C16.  This circuit also includes anything attached to point "E" on the schematic (R29-R34... etc).

===

Ok.  This is the first thing I would do to track down the problem.  

Did you put a replacement for R43 back into the amp?  If so, take it out.  

Then measure the resistance from that R43-CR1 junction to ground (the amp chassis) and tell us what it is.

The reason I want to know this, is that in order for R43 to pass sufficient current to burn up, this location should show a very low - possibly zero resistance value.

I'm also assuming that R43 and CR1 attach to the same terminal strip lug.  If this is not true, then let me know.

Wish us luck!

Offline brennansrevenge

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Trouble shooting an original Model T
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2005, 08:50:42 am »
measure the resistance from that R43-CR1 junction to ground (the amp chassis) = 40kohms

R43-CR1 do attach to the same terminal strip point.[/quote]