Author Topic: 1964 spectrum II questions  (Read 4463 times)

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Offline sunncity

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1964 spectrum II questions
« on: October 16, 2006, 05:40:24 pm »
hello....a guy i know might be selling me his '64 spectrum II but i just want to make sure i'm getting what i think i'm getting.   does anyone know what the impedance is on this head?  i've got a sunn 412 cab (16ohm) and i want to make sure it's not going to destroy anything....also, is it a good head for guitar?  hope someone can help me out...

thanks

molokovelocet@hotmail.com
« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 05:57:25 pm by sunncity »

Offline JoeArthur

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Re: 1964 spectrum II questions
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2006, 08:01:33 pm »

A 1964 Spectrum II?... ???

Offline sunncity

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Re: 1964 spectrum II questions
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2006, 09:25:49 pm »
yeah that's what he says....i guess regardless of the age....do you know anything about the impedance or if it's alright for a guitar?

Offline JoeArthur

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Re: 1964 spectrum II questions
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2006, 09:11:59 am »

8 or 4 ohms depending on number of cabinets or which output jack you use.  It is a guitar amp, normally came with a 2-15" JBL cabinet.

Offline sunncity

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Re: 1964 spectrum II questions
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2006, 09:20:54 am »
so would it be alright if i hooked it up to my sunn 412 cab?

Offline JoeArthur

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Re: 1964 spectrum II questions
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2006, 10:02:58 am »

I wouldn't.  Tube amps don't usually like feeding into higher over lower impedances.

Besides, even if you don't destroy the amp you would only be getting about half power out of it.

Offline sunncity

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Re: 1964 spectrum II questions
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2006, 10:07:55 am »
THANKS ALOT!

Offline Soundmasterg

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Re: 1964 spectrum II questions
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2006, 02:16:20 pm »
With all of the old Sunn heads, there is a 4 ohm tap, an 8 ohm tap, and a 16 ohm tap. The back of the amp will have two taps hooked up to it, either 4 and 8, or 8 and 16. One of the jacks on the back is meant to be used as the primary load, and the other is setup as an extra speaker, and has a different type of jack. If you change the extra jack to the same type as the normal jack, then you can hook up whichever ever transformer tap to the two jacks that you want to, and you'll be able to run the appropriate loads. The 16 ohm tap has the feedback hooked up to it, and is usually internally terminated to an unused solder lug on a terminal strip. After you've changed the jack, then you can hook the 16 ohm tap up in place of one of the others and it will work fine into a 16 ohm load.

Also, mismatching down is harder on a tube amp than mismatching up, within reason of course. If you have an amp that wants an 8 ohm load, and you put it into a 4 ohm load, it's halfway to a short, and you run a higher risk of the output tranformer arcing. If you go the other way and hook up a 16 ohm load to an 8 ohm tap, the tubes are actually running cooler and will last longer. Go either way from the optimum and the volume is less and the distortion is more. You wouldn't want to have a mismatch more than one step either way or you could have some failures.

Offline JoeArthur

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Re: 1964 spectrum II questions
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2006, 02:21:42 pm »
Also, mismatching down is harder on a tube amp than mismatching up, within reason of course. If you have an amp that wants an 8 ohm load, and you put it into a 4 ohm load, it's halfway to a short, and you run a higher risk of the output tranformer arcing. If you go the other way and hook up a 16 ohm load to an 8 ohm tap, the tubes are actually running cooler and will last longer. Go either way from the optimum and the volume is less and the distortion is more. You wouldn't want to have a mismatch more than one step either way or you could have some failures.

I do agree that proper matching of load and output impedance is the best for tube amps - it's the only way to get the maximum power and minimal distortion out of them.

However, the first part concerning a proper direction of mismatching is backwards. 

Many people believe a "short" is a bad thing and should be avoided at all costs - after all it should be "common sense"... right? 

Unfortunately this is simply not true for a tube amp with an output transformer - where running it with no load, meaning a completely open secondary is the fastest way to make that output transformer into something suitable for a boat anchor.

But I am not going to prove it with theory that no one will read - someone else can chime in with that, it's boring anyway.  I'm going to give you a little history instead.

If you ask almost any amplifier tech which tube amps have the most and least frequency of output transformer failure, 99 times out of 10 the answer to the most will be Marshall and the answer to the least will be Fender. What could possibly cause this difference?

Fender built cheap amplifiers.  No, this is not a statement that cheap is better, it's just a statement of fact. Leo was a businessman that knew building an amp cheaper would make his company more of a profit. 

For example: traditional Fender output transformers only have one secondary and not the multiple taps you will find on Marshall amps.  One of the primary causes of the difference in failure rates was the rather cheap impedance selector plug used on early Marshalls - if you didn't get it in just right it could fall out, opening up the secondary load on the transformer and making it history.

During the 1950's Fender made combo amps. Marshall chose the 1959 bassman schematic for the basis of their amps and incorporated various improvements like the tapped output transformer mentioned above.

During the early 1960's... Fender started making piggy-back versions of some of their combo amps like the Tremolux, Bandmaster, Bassman and the Showmans.

Unlike Marshall, Fender recognized a problem with this arrangement:  unlike a combo amp where the risk is rather low, with a piggy-back configuration the chances of having someone power up the separate amplifier head without a speaker load attached was much higher - and having to replace output transformers under warranty would significantly eat into the profits of the company.

To minimize this risk, Fender made a small change.  A change so small it went un-noticed by most of the amp making world that copied their designs - especially Marshall.  Fender spent a few extra cents on the speaker output jack and wired it so when no speaker plug was in the jack, the secondary of the output transformer would be SHORTED instead of OPEN.  This modification was eventually incorporated into the entire tube amplifier line, combo amps included.

You can check this for yourself by browsing the wealth of Fender schematics available at the Fender Field Guide (or most any other place on the web for that matter).

I mentioned that the Fender output transformer isn't tapped with various impedances.  It's secondary winding impedance is for the "normal" load. For example, the output impedance of the secondary for a Twin Reverb is 4 ohms and it's two 8 ohm internal speakers are wired in parallel for a total of 4 ohms.

The Fender extension speaker jack is simply wired in parallel across the main jack.  So anything connected to this jack would be in parallel with the main load - increasing the load by reducing the load impedance.  A 4 ohm extension speaker cabinet on a Twin would give 2 ohms total.

If this increased load... this "closer to a short" was indeed the worst case scenario for an output transformer then Fender could have easily wired the speaker jacks to put the extension speaker load in series with the main load.

But they didn't.  And it is well known in the world of Fender amp users that the amps can easily deal with a 100 percent mismatch downwards.

I give you the wild man of rock himself... Mr Ted Nugent.  For a significant part of his performance career he used multiple Twin Reverbs each on top of and with it's extension speaker jack plugged into... a Dual Showman cabinet - a 2 ohm load with a 4 ohm output impedance amp.

I don't believe Ted knows any amp setting other than "10".  I've seen him perform something like 5 or 6 times with that setup - and never once did it fail.  If it was an arrangement prone to failure, I'm quite confident he would have changed it for something more dependable.

It's your amp and you can run it any way you want. If you believe a mismatch upward is best and the output tubes will run cooler and last longer, then by all means go for it. 

And if you do blow the output transformer, which is much more likely in this direction of mismatch, just remember how long your dead cold tubes are lasting.

rick.heil

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Re: 1964 spectrum II questions
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2006, 05:42:04 pm »
Joe - amen, brother.  Praise the Lord and pass the dead-weight blown transformers.


sunncity - if you want to use the 412, I would (seems we've been saying this a lot) rewire the cab for the correct impedence.

Working under the assumption those are 16 ohm drivers, you could wire them in parallel to get a four ohm impedence (Joe or Ed, is that correct?).

Offline Soundmasterg

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Re: 1964 spectrum II questions
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2006, 06:32:02 pm »
Joe, I've seen it listed both ways as far as which mismatch is better or worse, and I've seen justifications to support both. I'll have to see if I can find the one I saved at home about why it was better to mismatch up...it was very good. I even think it was a post here on Ampage about 5 years ago.

I've run a Silvertone 1484 (which wants to see a 4 ohm load) into an 8 ohm load for years, usually full volume, with no ill effects. The sound changed and was much better for leads, being thick and distorted and compressed, but it sucked for rhythm. The OT in a 1484 is known to be way undersized, yet it worked fine, and still works fine now that it is going into the correct 4 ohm load. I'd say that Fender always specced better quality transformers than Marshall...they're certainly larger for a given power output level, but I'll agree with your reasoning with the selector switch for sure.

The guy can rewire the speakers in the cabinet or he can rewire the taps on the amp to the back of the amp and run a 16 ohm speaker cabinet in there. Whichever is easier for him. I'd think doing it at the amp is easier since its only 2 wires but whatever.

Greg

Offline EdBass

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Re: 1964 spectrum II questions
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2006, 09:00:34 pm »
Excellent post JoeArthur, very enlightening as well as entertaining.

I do agree that proper matching of load and output impedance is the best for tube amps - it's the only way to get the maximum power and minimal distortion out of them.

Well, at least here's something EVERYBODY agrees on! In this thread starting scenario, matching impedance with this amp and this 412 cab is so easy it pretty much makes the rest of this discussion a mute point - but very educational for the less experienced members!

Many people believe a "short" is a bad thing and should be avoided at all costs - after all it should be "common sense"... right?

According to basic electronics, yes. But in many ways vacuum tube circuits are a sort of "black art" of electrical circuits.

To quote Bruce Rozenblit (paraphrased);
"The electron current flow in a tube starts at the cathode and moves towards the plate. I now have to ask you to forget that...So, from now on, think of current flow as starting from a positive voltage and moving to ground, i.e., plate to cathode. Sorry, I don't mean to confuse you, but there is no other way to describe how a tube works."

Unfortunately this is simply not true for a tube amp with an output transformer - where running it with no load, meaning a completely open secondary is the fastest way to make that output transformer into something suitable for a boat anchor.

It's pretty hard - make that impossible to argue with this logic. The first thing most of us learn (either from veteran players... or the expensive way) is to NEVER run a tube amp with an open output.

Fender built cheap amplifiers.  No, this is not a statement that cheap is better, it's just a statement of fact. Leo was a businessman that knew building an amp cheaper would make his company more of a profit.


Spot on brother! Leo wasn't the only one. Many, if not most, of the now legendary tube amp components from the 50's and 60's were originally used for these part manufacturers lenient credit policies rather than for their sonic "mojo".
Isn't it ironic that the vast majority of the current mega dollar boutique amp manufacturers faithfully copy these highly compromised original designs (albeit with sometimes excellent results)?

And if you do blow the output transformer, which is much more likely in this direction of mismatch, just remember how long your dead cold tubes are lasting.

I'm pretty sure that this is the funniest sentence I've ever read on this post, thanks for the belly laugh Joe!

Offline Isaac

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Re: 1964 spectrum II questions
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2006, 06:54:56 pm »
Working under the assumption those are 16 ohm drivers, you could wire them in parallel to get a four ohm impedence (Joe or Ed, is that correct?).
If they're 16 ohm drivers, then yes, running them all in parallel will give you 4 ohms.

If they're 4 ohm drivers, then series parallel will give you 4 ohms.
Isaac

rick.heil

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Re: 1964 spectrum II questions
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2006, 09:30:45 pm »
Thanks Isaac, just wanted to make sure my math was right :)