2000S: Where is the Loud ?

[pickinatit]

I recently bought a 2000S.  I kept reading here and on other websites that they were Loud, Loud, Loud, and I believed it because I have a Sunn Solarus Guitar Amp that takes the paint off the walls with the volume on 3 or 4.

I've been very disappointed.  With my Fender Mustang bass at full volume, running an 8 ohm Ampeg SVT 115E through one output and either an 8 ohm Avatar B212 neo or a B210 Neo thru the other (so I'm running at 4 ohms, right?), I have the volume knob on the 2000S to 6 or 7 just to keep up at rehearsal (with two 100  watt guitar players; entirely too loud for rehearsal, but I have to live with that).

Instead of (2) GZ34 rectifier tubes, the amp came with (1) Copper Cylinder (I think it's a solid state replacement for GZ34 tubes).  Would that make that much difference in the volume the amp will produce?  I'm going to have the Power tubes ( 4 - KT88's) checked and also the bias.  Anything else in particular I should have an amp tech look for?

[EdBass]

The 2000S is a powerful amp, but it's from a day when a 120 watt bass amp was a monster. It's also from the time, by necessity, of very efficient drivers and cabinet designs. Modern bass amps with 350, 400 or maybe 1000 watts can force a less efficient driver/enclosure combination to strip paint by brute force, a 120 watt amp needs to work with the right combination to get stupid loud.
Regardless, if your impedence is matched properly, a healthy 2000S should get plenty loud with a 1X15 paired with a Deltalite loaded 2X10 or 2X12. (I like Avatar cabs, built strong and priced right, but.. with those burly Eminence drivers more suited for the big power amps of this millenium) Make sure your outputs on the 2000S are wired for 8 & 4 ohms not 8 & 16 ohms.
However, if your 30+ year old amp isn’t in top shape it won’t perform at it’s peak potential. That copper tube is probably a SS rectifier replacement for the GZ34’s and is a step in the right direction for maximizing your amp’s volume. When Sunn switched to SS rectification, their 4X6550 amp ratings went from 120 watts to 150 watts. Have a tech check everything, paying particular attention to the filter capacitors. If old Sunns have an Achilles heel it’s the power supply, more specifically the rectifier/filter caps. Without  a stout source for juice, you can’t really maximize the amp.
Forum member “rp” just went through a procedure on a 1200S, and seems to be happy with the increase in power.
Maybe rp will chip in here and share some Sunn “hot rodding” experience.

[Soundmasterg]

If you're using the Sunn through a vintage 2000S pair of cabinets that have the JBL D140's in it, then yah its quite loud. The original setup was two 2x15 cabinets per head for the 2000S. Like EdBass said, with modern speakers being less efficient, you need more power to get them to give you an equivilent volume level.

[pickinatit]

OK,  I will have the tech. pay special attention to the rectifier / filter caps. 
Is  a single  SS  Rectifier sufficient replacement for  2  GZ 34  rectifier tubes?
This amp has 4 -  KT88's.

What look like original labels on the output jack indicate 4 & 8 ohms for the output jacks. 
Can the 2000S  be rewired so that a  4 ohm load can be plugged into each of the output jacks?  (output jacks in series instead of parallel ?).  If that IS possible  I can run the SVT 115E daisy chained to an Avatar B210neo from one output connection and the Avatar B212neo daisy chained to another Avatar B210neo from the other output.

(Or instead of another B210 sounds like I might be better off adding another 15 or another B212?) 

Right now I only have the three cabs SVT 115E, B212neo and B210neo. All three are 8 ohm cabs purchased before I knew I would be buying the 2000S. 

(I have the Concert bass amp that will take the 2 ohm load.  My original intention was to run through the 15 and the B210  and maybe add the B212 for a 2.67 Ohm load if the occasion called for it).  I love the 2000S's Tone versatility though and really want to use it as my main amp.

[EdBass]

OK,  I will have the tech. pay special attention to the rectifier / filter caps. 
Is  a single  SS  Rectifier sufficient replacement for  2  GZ 34  rectifier tubes?
This amp has 4 -  KT88's.

Maybe, bordering on probably, but for $20 I'd plug another one in.

What look like original labels on the output jack indicate 4 & 8 ohms for the output jacks. 

Every 2000S I've had personal contact with was wired for 8 & 4 ohms, but you might as well have the tech look at it to be sure. You have your choice of 8 & 4 or 8 & 16 (assuming the amp has the original OT), and it's simple to switch it to which one you want.

Can the 2000S  be rewired so that a  4 ohm load can be plugged into each of the output jacks?  (output jacks in series instead of parallel ?).  If that IS possible  I can run the SVT 115E daisy chained to an Avatar B210neo from one output connection and the Avatar B212neo daisy chained to another Avatar B210neo from the other output.

You could wire a pair of jacks in series (or would that be parallel, Isaac? ) to the 8 ohm tap, but... man, that's a bunch of drivers! As has been stated, the Eminence drivers in those Avatars are designed to be hammered with watts, I think they are rated for 500 watts per cabinet plus the passive crossovers and tweeters. If loud is the destination you seek with your 120 watt Sunn, large voice coil gaps, super stiff cone suspension, and small, tight, inefficient cabinets is probably not the direction you want to take.

Right now I only have the three cabs SVT 115E, B212neo and B210neo. All three are 8 ohm cabs purchased before I knew I would be buying the 2000S.

Have you tried disconnecting the tweeter and crossover in the B210 and running it with the 15E? How about a pair of 15E's

(I have the Concert bass amp that will take the 2 ohm load.  My original intention was to run through the 15 and the B210  and maybe add the B212 for a 2.67 Ohm load if the occasion called for it).  I love the 2000S's Tone versatility though and really want to use it as my main amp.

At the risk of sounding anti-Sunn, why don't you just get a nice preamp (or have your tech wire a  line out into your 2000S) and a couple of Crown CE 2000's or Stewart World 2.1's? You can always use pedals to get that "amp disemboweling itself" sound. Hook up as many different speakers as you want (watch your impedence though) plenty of power on tap, and go out and level some small towns!

[pickinatit]

My 2000 s  has the 8 & 4 ohm outputs.  Can it be wired in series to the 4 ohm taps ? 

I'll consider your other suggestions as well and discuss it all with the tech.  The "Guitar Center"  near me (in South Jersey) is supposed to have a semi-retired  electronics wizard that knows everything there is to know about old vintage amps and Sunn in particular.

Needing different cabs is a real bummer.  I recently put about $ 1,100 to get what I have.  I guess I should have done more research first,  but like I said I didn't  know I would be buying the 2000S  or even that I would be playing in a band again when I bought them.

Thanks for all your help and suggestions.

[meltdown]

I have a late 60's 2000s and when I first found it and played it, it was not that loud.  It turns out, it needed a rebias and one solder connection fixed, and man, what a difference.  I do have 2 2x15 cabs with JBL's (D-130's and D-140's) and man, it sounds great.  I run my JazzBass near open and the amp on maybe 2.5-3.  We never lack for presence on the bottom end and we're all half stone deaf after 35 years playing.  It sounds like a speaker mismatch to me or some small tweak on the head that will sort things out.  Don't give up on this amp.  You will regret it later.

[EdBass]

My 2000 s  has the 8 & 4 ohm outputs.

Like I said, every 2000S I've had my hands on was 8 & 4 ohms. Just be aware that it can be or even could have been internally rewired to get 8 & 16.

Can it be wired in series to the 4 ohm taps ? 

Sure, you can wire it however you want, but how would you get two 2 ohm loads with your current speakers?

I'll consider your other suggestions as well and discuss it all with the tech.  The "Guitar Center"  near me (in South Jersey) is supposed to have a semi-retired  electronics wizard that knows everything there is to know about old vintage amps and Sunn in particular.

Perfect! You're fortunate to have easy access to an old school amp tech. You should should get them to post on this forum.

Needing different cabs is a real bummer.  I recently put about $ 1,100 to get what I have.  I guess I should have done more research first,  but like I said I didn't  know I would be buying the 2000S  or even that I would be playing in a band again when I bought them.

You don't necessarily need new cabinets, I sometimes run a Hartke 410XL (loaded with 4 ohm Eminence Basslite aluminum cone drivers) and a Hartke 215XL with a modified 2000S, and it sounds great and gets loud enough for practice or small gigs. Of course “loud” is a subjective quantity. As previously mentioned...

The 2000S is a powerful amp, but it's from a day when a 120 watt bass amp was a monster. It's also from the time, by necessity, of very efficient drivers and cabinet designs. Modern bass amps with 350, 400 or maybe 1000 watts can force a less efficient driver/enclosure combination to strip paint by brute force, a 120 watt amp needs to work with the right combination to get stupid loud.

Which is re-emphasized...

I have a late 60's 2000s and when I first found it and played it, it was not that loud.  It turns out, it needed a rebias and one solder connection fixed, and man, what a difference. I do have 2 2x15 cabs with JBL's (D-130's and D-140's) and man, it sounds great.  I run my JazzBass near open and the amp on maybe 2.5-3.  We never lack for presence on the bottom end and we're all half stone deaf after 35 years playing.

Those D series JBL's have very close VC tolerances and compliant cone suspensions that allow them to move a lot of air with minimal wattage. It also allows them to meltdown or decone themselves if you try to run 200 - 300 watts into one. The D's are rated around 75 watts or so, while the Eminence drivers in your Avatars are rated for 250 watts each. The 215 cabs have a lot of room and ample porting to utilize the front and back side of the drivers to their best advantage. This also makes them about as portable as a washing machine. Your Avatars will fit in the back of a VW Golf.
With the proper amplification for the specific cabinet, both will make your ears bleed. It's just "old school" vs "new technology", you can blend them but it's difficult to do it indiscriminately. You need to put some thought into it. With big SS amps you can just pile on drivers until your impedence drops below the amp's stability threshold, and with smaller tube amps you need to match drivers to output more carefully.
I'll bet if you get your 2000S sorted out electronically, and hook your 115 and B210 into it, you'll get a satifactory result.

If it isn't loud enough, just get another 2000S!




 

[Soundmasterg]

I'll add that if you need a specific load for the 4 ohm tap on the amp, you can always do it from the speakers by running them in parallel or series. You could put two jacks on the amp, and hook the 4 ohm tap up to both, but you'd still have to have your speaker conenctions sorted out right to have a 4 ohm load that the amp would be seeing. Since you have to do that anyway, then why not just leave the amp with a 4 and 8, or 4 and 16, or 8 and 16 taps on the back and get your speaker connections sorted out so the amp is seeing the correct load.

And more efficient speakers would vertainly help you to get more volume, but you should be able to get a good tone with what you have and then mic through the PA to get the volume you need. As long as your amp sound is loud enough to give you good stage volume where you stand, then the PA can do the rest.

[pickinatit]

OK.  Rather then conduct an endless game of "what if"  I will go ahead and complete the obvious step 1:  Have the amp tech go over the amp and be sure that the amp itself is electronically sound.  Then come back to you guys and let you know the result. 

Thank you all for being here to pass on your knowledge and advice regarding Sunn equipment.  By the way, I have no other issues with this 2000S amp.  The wide range of tone from one end to the other is truly amazing.  It's why I'm extra determined to make this work as my main amp.