Author Topic: UUGH!!!  (Read 5317 times)

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Offline eotpr

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UUGH!!!
« on: February 07, 2007, 04:10:38 pm »
I plugged the 8 ohm speaker cab into the 4 ohm plugin.  There was a loud hum and now nothing.  The 8 ohm side still works with a low hum where silence once abounded.  I think it might be a filter capaciter.  Any opinions???

Offline rick.heil

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Re: UUGH!!!
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2007, 05:51:34 pm »
It may help to tell everyone what kind of amplifier you're talking about. :)

Offline eotpr

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Re: UUGH!!!
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2007, 07:01:24 pm »
I can't believe I did that again....It is a Sunn Sceptre. 

Offline pickinatit

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Re: UUGH!!!
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2007, 05:52:20 am »
I'm anxious to hear opinions myself about this one from those of you who know more about these things.  I thought that speakers with greater resistance then the amp minimum resistance were not a problem.
I thought it was only a problem if the speaker resistance was below the amp's minimum.   Or is this different in the case of Sunn amps that have the two output jacks that are designated for different loads.  I have two such amps,  the Solarus and the 2000S.

Offline JoeArthur

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Re: UUGH!!!
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2007, 07:36:53 am »
I thought that speakers with greater resistance then the amp minimum resistance were not a problem.
I thought it was only a problem if the speaker resistance was below the amp's minimum.

This "rule" pertains to SOLID STATE amps only.  Tube amps should be matched to a speaker load (e.g. 8 ohm amp output to an 8 ohm speaker).

I plugged the 8 ohm speaker cab into the 4 ohm plugin.  There was a loud hum and now nothing.  The 8 ohm side still works with a low hum where silence once abounded.  I think it might be a filter capaciter.  Any opinions???

Most tube amps can deal with a mismatched load of 100 percent.  I can't really see how a mismatched load like your example could cause a filter cap to go south - but that inability doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Since the 8 ohm side still works, it means that the output transformer secondaries are Ok.

Hopefully you are turning off the amp, or at least putting the amp into standby before unplugging speakers. If you are not, it is a pretty fast way on these amps to blow the output transformer since unplugging the speakers opens up the transformer secondary.

My first thought is a bad output tube or an output tube not working. This can cause hum. With the speaker plugged in and the amp on, check both output tubes for a faint blue glow.

If only one has a blue glow, the tube that doesn't might be bad, or you could have blown the 47-50 ohm "safety resistors" between the tube's plate and output transformer. Turn the amp off and switch the output tubes into each other's sockets and turn the amp on again. If the other side doesn't have the blue glow now, then the tube is bad.  If the same side still doesn't have the blue glow, it's a good bet you blew the safety resistor.

Offline eotpr

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Re: UUGH!!!
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2007, 09:04:28 am »
Joe,
    Please pardon my ignorance but which ones are the output tubes?  I normally plug in the speakers before I turn on the amp.

Offline pickinatit

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Re: UUGH!!!
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2007, 10:18:43 am »
I thought that speakers with greater resistance then the amp minimum resistance were not a problem.
I thought it was only a problem if the speaker resistance was below the amp's minimum.

This "rule" pertains to SOLID STATE amps only.  Tube amps should be matched to a speaker load (e.g. 8 ohm amp output to an 8 ohm speaker).

I plugged the 8 ohm speaker cab into the 4 ohm plugin.  There was a loud hum and now nothing.  The 8 ohm side still works with a low hum where silence once abounded.  I think it might be a filter capaciter.  Any opinions???

Most tube amps can deal with a mismatched load of 100 percent.  I can't really see how a mismatched load like your example could cause a filter cap to go south - but that inability doesn't mean it didn't happen.

What am I missing?  These statements seem contradictory to me. Please explain.  I'm trying hard to understand this aspect because I have two different tube amps and a solid state amp that must share cabs, so it is important that I understand this correctly.

Solarus         with 8 & 16 ohm outputs
2000S          with 4 & 8  ohm outputs
Concert Bass with I think two 4 ohm outputs that will handle a 2 ohm load if you plug 4 into each output jack but I'm not really sure of this but have never put greater then a 4 ohm load on it anyway.

Sorry,  it's not my intention to hi-jack your thread, Eotpr

Offline JoeArthur

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Re: UUGH!!!
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2007, 02:24:23 pm »
Joe,
    Please pardon my ignorance but which ones are the output tubes?  I normally plug in the speakers before I turn on the amp.

Your output tubes if stock (or stock replacements) would be labeled as 6550. A KT88 tube could be used to replace 6550.

Looking at your amp from the back, from left to right, you should have a GZ34 (unless someone replaced it with a solid state rectifier) and then the two output tubes - hopefully two big ones that look alike... The remaining tubes should be smaller.

Offline eotpr

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Re: UUGH!!!
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2007, 02:46:26 pm »
My tubes are the origional ones and there have been no modifications to the amp.  Thanks I can swap them and see.  Can you still find 6550 tubes? :?

Offline JoeArthur

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Re: UUGH!!!
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2007, 02:56:59 pm »
I thought that speakers with greater resistance then the amp minimum resistance were not a problem.
I thought it was only a problem if the speaker resistance was below the amp's minimum.

This "rule" pertains to SOLID STATE amps only.  Tube amps should be matched to a speaker load (e.g. 8 ohm amp output to an 8 ohm speaker).

I plugged the 8 ohm speaker cab into the 4 ohm plugin.  There was a loud hum and now nothing.  The 8 ohm side still works with a low hum where silence once abounded.  I think it might be a filter capaciter.  Any opinions???

Most tube amps can deal with a mismatched load of 100 percent.  I can't really see how a mismatched load like your example could cause a filter cap to go south - but that inability doesn't mean it didn't happen.

What am I missing?  These statements seem contradictory to me. Please explain.  I'm trying hard to understand this aspect because I have two different tube amps and a solid state amp that must share cabs, so it is important that I understand this correctly.

Solarus         with 8 & 16 ohm outputs
2000S          with 4 & 8  ohm outputs
Concert Bass with I think two 4 ohm outputs that will handle a 2 ohm load if you plug 4 into each output jack but I'm not really sure of this but have never put greater then a 4 ohm load on it anyway.

Sorry,  it's not my intention to hi-jack your thread, Eotpr

Tube amps should be matched to their speaker load to deliver their rated output power. But they can withstand an output mismatch of 100 percent without destroying their output transformer.

Since tube amps can withstand a direct short across the secondary output winding better than they can withstand a total open, I prefer to mismatch downward if a mismatch is necessary.  In other words, I would plug in a 4 ohm speaker load to a tube amp with an output impedance of 8 ohms before I would plug in a 16 ohm speaker load to the same amp.

Just keep in mind that a mismatch between the output impedance of a tube amp and the speaker load is not the most desirable situation.  But if it needs to happen, you will either not produce the rated output power or you will shorten the life of the output tubes... or both.

Solid state amps are the opposite.  They will easily withstand a complete open (i.e. no speaker plugged in) and depending upon the amp circuit - could be easily destroyed with a shorted speaker load.

Solid state devices do not like heat.  The lower the speaker impedance, the higher the current that will be drawn by the output transistors.  The higher the current drawn by the output transistors the greater the heat they will produce.  The greater the heat produced by the output transistors the shorter their life.

As I have mentioned in other posts, I would never use a concert with stock 2N3055 output transistors to drive a 2 ohm load. 4 - 2N3055 transistors will produce too much heat for them to have a long and productive life. Six or more 2N3055's - sure not a problem, but with only four they will be operating outside of their safety range.


Offline pickinatit

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Re: UUGH!!!
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2007, 04:28:23 pm »
Thank you, Joe Arthur for clearing that up.

I have read your thread regarding the 2 ohm load on the concert bass amp and have been careful to keep it at a minimum of 4 as a result.  That's why this website is so great and so important.  I NEVER would have suspected the potential problem since the literature says the amp can take 2 ohms

thanks again, so much.

Offline eotpr

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Re: UUGH!!!
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2007, 10:23:06 am »
WOW there is a huge selection of tubes on the web.  Do I need to get a matched set?  Does it matter if they are from China or Russia or where ever?  Is NOS better than just new?  Does that shape really matter that much? 

Offline JoeArthur

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Re: UUGH!!!
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2007, 10:57:24 am »
WOW there is a huge selection of tubes on the web.  Do I need to get a matched set?  Does it matter if they are from China or Russia or where ever?  Is NOS better than just new?  Does that shape really matter that much? 

I don't bother with a matched set - I just swap the output tubes back and forth until I get a position with the least amount of hum. I figure that since the output transformer and the phase inverter ain't that closely balanced a matched set isn't necessary - but others disagree.

I've only used NOS. They just seem better built to me. I have heard that the russian tubes are usually better than the chinese built, but that is always subject to change.

The shape of the envelope doesn't matter.

If you're looking for a suggestion, I always recommend Antique Electronics - they're on the web at www.tubesandmore.com - they sell tubes without an overdose of hype.

Offline eotpr

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Re: UUGH!!!
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2007, 04:50:19 pm »
When I went to swap the tubes one seemed a little loose.  I went ahead and swapped them and both sides worked.  I swapped them back and both sides still worked.  I guess it was a loose tube.  In the future before I ever turn the amp on I am goung to do a tube check to be sure they are all in tight