Author Topic: MORE COLISEUM SLAVE ADVICE WANTED  (Read 4891 times)

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Offline RxJxVx

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MORE COLISEUM SLAVE ADVICE WANTED
« on: March 29, 2007, 12:56:13 am »
 :?so i am using the concert bass and the coliseum slave to run a 1200w 4x12 bass cabinet and a 2x15 which is either 450w or 600w (i can't remember but when i look up the speakers i find they can handle 300w a piece, but i thought when i bough tthem they were only rated @ 225w each...)  HERE'S THE POINT:  i wonder if anyone would mind offering me what they feel would be the most sensible way to run all of this, meaning how should i hook everything up for MAXIMUM POWER DISTRIBUTION?  does it make sense to run the concert bass into the coliseum slave and use that to run 2 speaker cables into the 4x12 while running 1 speaker cable from the concert bass to the 2x15?  any suggestions or advice are GREATLY appreciated.

thanks in advance...

Offline EdBass

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Re: MORE COLISEUM SLAVE ADVICE WANTED
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2007, 09:18:13 am »
:?so i am using the concert bass and the coliseum slave to run a 1200w 4x12 bass cabinet and a 2x15 which is either 450w or 600w (i can't remember but when i look up the speakers i find they can handle 300w a piece, but i thought when i bough tthem they were only rated @ 225w each...) 
I assume maximum decibels are your goal, correct? In that case, why use such inefficient speakers? Usually the way to get that high of a power rating on a driver it needs to have a very stiff (i.e hard to move) suspension , and generally a larger voice coil gap to keep it from rubbing and to dissipate the heat of a modern high powered amplifier. Your old Sunns are not what I would describe as “high powered”, not by today’s standards.
More horsepower or less resistance, a basic work function that applies in this scenario.
HERE'S THE POINT:  i wonder if anyone would mind offering me what they feel would be the most sensible way to run all of this, meaning how should i hook everything up for MAXIMUM POWER DISTRIBUTION?
Put the Coliseum on eBay, get a used Crown CE 4000 or the equivalent, split the line out of the Concert into inputs on the Crown, run one side into your 4x12, and the other side into your 2x15 and hang on for dear life. Or, bridge the Crown, show it a 4 ohm load and get ear protection.
does it make sense to run the concert bass into the coliseum slave and use that to run 2 speaker cables into the 4x12 while running 1 speaker cable from the concert bass to the 2x15? 
Is the 4x12 stereo? Here’s a suggestion; NEVER run 2 speaker leads from an amp(s) into a cabinet unless it’s stereo. Using your existing gear, run the line out from your Concert to the Coliseum slave, and I would run the speaker outs from the Concert to the cabinet with the lowest impedance. If the cabinets are the same impedance, I would run the Coliseum to the 4x12 and the Concert to the 2x15.

Offline Isaac

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Re: MORE COLISEUM SLAVE ADVICE WANTED
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2007, 02:22:43 pm »
What are the impedances of your cabinets, RxJxVx?
Isaac

Offline rick.heil

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Re: MORE COLISEUM SLAVE ADVICE WANTED
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2007, 12:59:26 am »
Put the Coliseum on eBay, get a used Crown CE 4000 or the equivalent, split the line out of the Concert into inputs on the Crown, run one side into your 4x12, and the other side into your 2x15 and hang on for dear life. Or, bridge the Crown, show it a 4 ohm load and get ear protection.


I'll vouch for the CE 4000, I own one and have used them for live sound all the time.  They will blow your face off if you crank them with the right speakers.

Offline RxJxVx

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Re: MORE COLISEUM SLAVE ADVICE WANTED
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2007, 02:28:54 pm »
Isaac - both cabinets are 4 ohms

Ed - not sure but i am fairly certain the 4x12 (Aguilar GS412) is a stereo cabinet.  i can't figure out why else it would have 2 inputs on the back.  the 2x15 is definitely mono.  i'm using these speakers b/c i originally had just a few 2x15 cabs i was using for guitar but recently bagan playing bass with some very loud guitarists and decided to pick up the 4x12 as it was the best bass cabinet i could purchase locally (w/o shelling out $1000 for an Ampeg 810) without the hassle of spending weeks scouring the internet looking for a good dea on a vintage cabinetl.  i actually picked up an Aguilar GS412 which was supposedly brand new and i absolutely LOVE the sound.  the 2x15 is an old Acoustic cabinet which i installed some Eminence Legend CB15 speakers in.  the 215 has a really nice sound for bass or guitar.

thanks to everyone for their input.  i will definitely look into the Crown CE 4000 you mentioned.

Offline Isaac

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Re: MORE COLISEUM SLAVE ADVICE WANTED
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2007, 05:37:05 pm »
The Concert Bass will put 150 watts into 4 ohms. The Coliseum, something over 200 watts. That's 350-400 watts. That ought to be enough power for almost any gig. If it isn't enough, the PA had better be able to handle whatever else is needed.

The Crown will put 1200 watts into 4 ohms, but only one of the cabinets can handle that much. No worries, you won't be pushing the Crown to its limits, I'm sure.

For myself, the Sunns you already have would be more than enough. You're looking at about 6-8 dB more power if you were to get the Crown, which seems to run about $900. 6-8 dB more power into a cabinet doesn't usually translate into the same increase in SPL out, though. Power compression would be a significant factor in this case.

So ask yourself whether or not you need the extra power, and whether or not it's worth the expense.

Here's a completely different approach. Replace the drivers in the cabinets with more efficient drivers, such as JBL's. You might gain as much in sound output as you would with the Crown, and you might get a much better sound. Pick your drivers carefully, and it's pretty much guaranteed. The cost might be less, too.
Isaac

Offline rick.heil

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Re: MORE COLISEUM SLAVE ADVICE WANTED
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2007, 05:40:47 pm »
As for why there are two inputs, it might be for "daisy-chaining" cabs together (a jack is wired in parallel or series to allow two cabs to run off the same amplifier).

Offline EdBass

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Re: MORE COLISEUM SLAVE ADVICE WANTED
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2007, 08:42:51 am »
First, I didn't mean to endorse Crown CE 4000's, I was using that as an example of a high powered power amp. I like Crowns, but there are a bunch of amps available that will get the job done if you want to get serious loud.

That Aggie of yours is a beast, a very nice cabinet and it loves big amps. It's NOT stereo, so be careful about what you plug in. I would run the 2x15 with the Concert and the Aggie with the Coliseum. That should get you the
MAXIMUM POWER DISTRIBUTION?
that you are looking for using your current equipment.

Reading posts here and listening to some of the band links, it seems to me that the goal of a lot of the posters is simply to get as loud as they can. The normal way to pursue these decibels seems to be accomplished by hooking up whatever (usually Sunn) gear they can get their hands on and wailing away.
If truly LOUD is what you seek, massive power amps and high powered drivers is the way to get there. Those of us who actually care about how we sound over how loud we can get tend to keep stage volume reasonable and let the PA use those massive power amps and high powered drivers to do the heavy lifting.
But if you want LOUD with your 2x15 and Aggie 4x12, start shopping for big amps.

Offline RxJxVx

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Re: MORE COLISEUM SLAVE ADVICE WANTED
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2007, 09:54:25 am »
thanks, Ed -

i think that what i have right now really is going to be sufficient for quite a while, especially considering the size venues we're currently playing.  and the Aguilar is a LOVEY cabinet.  at some point i would like to look into a more powerful amp but i am fairly certain i should be able to keep up with the guitars for a while using the concert bass and the coliseum slave.  i am into lots of volume, but i do also treasure my tone, and i feel like the Aggie is capable of producing  plenty of both.

Offline basiklybass

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Re: MORE COLISEUM SLAVE ADVICE WANTED
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2007, 06:20:14 pm »
Isaac, I am confused with your statement about putting 6 to 8 more db into the speakers. Could you be so kind as to explain that a bit more?

It is my understanding that when referring to speakers and db's, the discussion is in regards to sound in air. When referring to db's in this sense, every 3 db increase is an apparent doubling of volume. When referring to amplifier output, watts are used because work is being done, the electrical power of the amp is being transformed by the speakers coupled to the air, a different medium than when in the electronic form inside the amp.

While the terms are the same, they mean completely different things.

I am just a tinkerer, and as your responses over the years, as well as your music, have shown, your knowledge is deeper.

Aaannnddd, I am a newbie, my apologies.....

Offline Isaac

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Re: MORE COLISEUM SLAVE ADVICE WANTED
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2007, 11:40:01 pm »
Happy to. Decibels, abbreviated dB, are a measure of relative power. That's all the term means. The power can be acoustic, electrical, or horsepower, though the term is most often used in electronics and acoustics. When I say, "putting 6-8 dB more power into the speakers," I'm referring to the power input to the speakers. 6 dB is approximately four times the input power, so if the Coliseum puts out 300 watts and the Crown 1200 watts, that's an increase of about 6 dB. Going from 200 watts to 1200 watts is an increase of 7.8 dB.

That's on the input side. On the output side, we're dealing with acoustics. As those 1200 watts are pumped into a speaker cabinet that's less than 10% efficient, as yours probably is, that means that 90% of the power is lost in the form of heat. that means that the voice coils are heating up, increasing their resistance, and making them less efficient. As a result, the acoustic output is not a full 6 dB. That's called power compression. Another factor is that the magnetic flux in the voice coil gap is not constant, and, as the voice coil moves out of the center of the gap, there's less flux, and so less efficient conversion of power to sound. How large these effects are varies, depending on the drivers used, but you can see that increasing the input power by 6 dB will never get you a full 6 dB increase in acoustic output. Just can't happen.

Lastly, your understanding of apparent volume to acoustic output is incorrect. While a 3 dB increase is a doubling of power, it is not an apparent doubling of volume. That takes approximately 10 dB.

So those are the reasons I say that going to a much more powerful amp isn't going to get you as much as you might think.
Isaac

Offline basiklybass

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Re: MORE COLISEUM SLAVE ADVICE WANTED
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2007, 05:25:57 pm »
Thank you Issac...another day...and I learned sumpin new! It's a good one then.