Author Topic: To Bias or Not to Bias...That is the Question.  (Read 11835 times)

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Offline Soundmasterg

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Re: To Bias or Not to Bias...That is the Question.
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2007, 12:58:05 am »
Quote
while everyboby knows that tube amps work by magic and require a Shaman to work on them properly.

Yah be careful to not let the smoke out! :)

I would guess that most of the manufacturers specced their bias voltage recommendations to allow max power for a given tube type as long as it was in a safe operating range. People probably adjust the bias nowadays by reading the cathode current because it is a little easier to predict the results than adjusting by the voltage on the grid. The hotter and colder parts that you mentioned come into play when you adjust to extremes. There will be a difference in the sound and feel of the amp as you adjust the bias either way but as long as you don't adjust down to cutoff (colder) or hot enough to cause the tube life to be really short, and it sounds good to you, then you're good to go. The bias setting tools that allow you to measure the cathode current and the plate voltage are a bit more useful than the ones that only measure the cathode current.

Offline EdBass

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Re: To Bias or Not to Bias...That is the Question.
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2007, 08:51:28 am »
I would guess that most of the manufacturers specced their bias voltage recommendations to allow max power for a given tube type as long as it was in a safe operating range.
I'd say that's a safe guess, also a strong argument for setting bias with grid voltage.
People probably adjust the bias nowadays by reading the cathode current because it is a little easier to predict the results than adjusting by the voltage on the grid.
The bias is the bias, wouldn't adjusting the grid (using the convenient, handy dandy trim) and measuring the plate, or better yet scoping the output as you adjust be a better indicator of result?
The hotter and colder parts that you mentioned come into play when you adjust to extremes.
Well, hot and cold are pretty much accepted terminology in "guru mythology speak", and I think the terms come into play just as soon as you veer off of the manufacturers spec. i.e. "I like to run outputs just a tick cold"
There will be a difference in the sound and feel of the amp as you adjust the bias either way but as long as you don't adjust down to cutoff (colder) or hot enough to cause the tube life to be really short, and it sounds good to you, then you're good to go.
Truly the only "result" that matters, if you can afford to pay, go ahead and play. How bad can you hurt a point to point amp anyway? Take out a tranny maybe, and even then it can be rewound.
The bias setting tools that allow you to measure the cathode current and the plate voltage are a bit more useful than the ones that only measure the cathode current.
Other than a multimeter or an oscilloscope? Is there something else I need to buy? :wink:

Offline JoeArthur

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Re: To Bias or Not to Bias...That is the Question.
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2007, 09:32:59 am »
Other than a multimeter or an oscilloscope? Is there something else I need to buy? :wink:

I assumed he was talking about those probe adapters - plug it into the tube socket and then plug the tube into the adapter and you now have measuring points.

Like this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Bias-Tool-probe-tester-for-tube-amp-amplifier-biasing_W0QQitemZ250105826364QQihZ015QQcategoryZ43375QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

Offline Isaac

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Re: To Bias or Not to Bias...That is the Question.
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2007, 10:36:42 am »
Well, there you go, Joe. It says, right there in the ad, "A WELL-BIASED TUBE AMP GIVES THE ULTIMATE TONE!!!"

And, as we all know, they couldn't put it on the internets if it weren't true!
Isaac

Offline JoeArthur

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Re: To Bias or Not to Bias...That is the Question.
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2007, 12:37:10 pm »
And, as we all know, they couldn't put it on the internets if it weren't true!

You are so right. Imagine what it would be like if someone not as honest as Al Gore invented it!!  :-D

Offline EdBass

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Re: To Bias or Not to Bias...That is the Question.
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2007, 02:03:01 pm »
I assumed he was talking about those probe adapters - plug it into the tube socket and then plug the tube into the adapter and you now have measuring points.

Like this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Bias-Tool-probe-tester-for-tube-amp-amplifier-biasing_W0QQitemZ250105826364QQihZ015QQcategoryZ43375QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

Well, I want to have the "ULTIMATE TONE" so I better get a few of these. Do I need one for each tube, or just one for each amp? Thank God they're only 25 bucks!

Offline JoeArthur

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Re: To Bias or Not to Bias...That is the Question.
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2007, 03:06:38 pm »
I assumed he was talking about those probe adapters - plug it into the tube socket and then plug the tube into the adapter and you now have measuring points.

Like this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Bias-Tool-probe-tester-for-tube-amp-amplifier-biasing_W0QQitemZ250105826364QQihZ015QQcategoryZ43375QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

Well, I want to have the "ULTIMATE TONE" so I better get a few of these. Do I need one for each tube, or just one for each amp? Thank God they're only 25 bucks!

Well, obviously the bare minimum would be one for each tube. You might want to think about getting two for each tube so you can double check the readings you get from the first one.

Obviously, the chassis creates a ground plane which will affect the interelectrode emissions you get between tubes due to the natural variation found in the common capacitance between the pins of the tubes that have a higher than average amount of getter flash. And don't even forget the additional induction tendancy that occurs since the tube is raised above the ground plane. Amateurs always neglect this important point, so keep a close eye on the cathode dissipation ratings.

Offline Soundmasterg

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Re: To Bias or Not to Bias...That is the Question.
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2007, 11:25:50 pm »
Yah, I was talking about the socket adaptor things. They are basically a 1 ohm resistor that is measuring the cathode current. What you really want to set the bias with this method is the plate current only, but the screen current doesn't make a whole lot of difference and the difference it does make is in a safe direction, so its ok with the cathode current. There are types like the Bias King Pro which is a two socket probe that measures the cathode current and then you need a multimeter to measure the plate voltage, and then you would need to do some math to figure out what the dissipation level is and make sure it doesn't exceed the tube's maximum. The widely accepted 70% max to shoot for would be appropriate for fixed bias amps and that is 70% of whatever the max dissipation is for a given tube type. You can go above or below that as long as it sounds good to you, but as you go up from there it can be dangerous to the tube, and as you go down below 60% you tend to get crossover distortion which doesn't sound very good. Ted Weber makes some biasprobes that measure the cathode current, and then you flip a switch and it measures the plate voltage also, so these are a bit more handy. He also makes them in al kinds of different configurations. I've got both and I like Weber's better, but when I got my Bias King Weber's weren't out yet, and it works just fine too.

There are some problems with using the oscilliscope bias method, and these are pointed out in quite a few places. The Tone Lizard site has quite a bit of info on the various approaches and is entertaining reading. The main problem with only looking at the grid voltage and setting to some arbitrary number is that there isn't a linear relationship between the grid voltage setting and the current that will be passing through the tube. I find for myself that using the probes and setting by whatever the cathode current number is, and doing the math to make sure I'm not exceeding the max dissipation number of a given tube, I can reliably set the bias in such a way that I can get good sound on a variety of amps on a repeatable basis. Its also very easy to do. To get the dissipation numbers for the tubes, it is useful to have an RCA tube manual, which you can get from Antique Electronics Supply among other places.

Greg

Offline EdBass

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Re: To Bias or Not to Bias...That is the Question.
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2007, 01:06:31 am »
Obviously, the chassis creates a ground plane which will affect the interelectrode emissions you get between tubes due to the natural variation found in the common capacitance between the pins of the tubes that have a higher than average amount of getter flash. And don't even forget the additional induction tendancy that occurs since the tube is raised above the ground plane. Amateurs always neglect this important point, so keep a close eye on the cathode dissipation ratings.

As sure as I am that your tongue is firmly in your cheek, you are getting dangerously close to actual "guru" speak Joe!
Several months ago I had an incredibly long cell phone discussion with an intentionally un-named, well known "guru" (a person whom, I must add, I pay very careful attention to) about the synergistic relationship of static structural components to the electronic components in boutique and vintage gear.
It was sort of a technical dissertation about "mojo", sort of like your post but we never mentioned getters or cathode dissipation; now I need to call him... the heat dissipation from the cathode (not to mention the heater itself) would undoubtedly have an effect on the resonant frequency of a Baltic Birch cabinet.

Offline Spectrum II

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Re: To Bias or Not to Bias...That is the Question.
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2007, 08:36:02 pm »
So I decided to save my $75 this time & get under the hood myself. I ran into a problem, though: I couldn't figure out how to get a reading from the bias trim itself, but I adjusted according to plate voltage instead of milliamps. I read on Eurotubes that a KT88 fueled Sunn head should have a plate voltage of about 510v & trimmed it to that setting. Is this a bad way to go about this, boys? It was a fun experiment, nonetheless!

Offline Soundmasterg

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Re: To Bias or Not to Bias...That is the Question.
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2007, 02:49:30 pm »
You have to have a way to read the cathode current of the power tubes. Current has to be read in series, so your meter needs to be in circuit. This can be dangerous, so several safe ways have cropped up to measure this. The bias king, bias rite, etc., meters allow you to plug your tube into the bias probe, then plug the probe into the amp socket, and it measures the cathode current for you. You then measure the plate voltage, multiply that number by the cathode current number, (which is in milliamps, so you need to make it a decimal ala a reading a 27 becomes .027) then this gives you the dissipation in watts. 

An example would be on my Sunn 200S, which has about 560v plate when operating correctly. Hypothetically, if I measure the cathode current to be 60 milliamps, then I take the 560v times .060 which equals 33.6 watts. The max dissipation of the KT88 is 42 watts. Generally with a fixed bias amp, we should shoot for biasing around 60% to 70% of the max dissipation number for a given tube type, so we should try to bias from 25.2 ma to 29.4 ma. You can see that 33.6 is a bit too high, so we would try to adjust the cathode current to a lower number, which then makes the plate voltage go up, so we have to remeasure and refigure out our equation every time to get an accurate reading for what our dissipation is. Once we are in the "safe" range, if it sounds good to us, then we are good to go. You can adjust hotter or colder than the 60% to 70% recommendations, but as you go colder, you introduce crossover distortion which doesn't sound very good. As you go hotter, you run the risk of burning out the power tubes prematurely due to excessive current.

An alternative to measuring with a bias probe as mentioned above would be to temporarily solder a 1 ohm resistor between the cathode and ground of each power tube and measure across it with your meter. This will give you the same reading that the probes do. You need to make sure to lift the ground connection from each cathode, and solder a 1 ohm resistor between each cathode and ground, and not just one of rboth power tubes or your reading will be off. It is safer and probably better to just purchase a bias probe. Weber's Bias Rite probes are pretty cool if you spend the extra to get the more fully featured model as they check the cathode current and the plate voltage, so you can just use the one probe and you don't need another meter.

Given that you set your amp to 510v, you either have set it to a very high current for the power tubes and it could shorten tube life, or your power supply's electrolytic filter caps are getting tired and are not supplying the amount of curent that they should normally. If it is one of the big transformer Sunns (the ones meant for 6550's or KT88's) rather than the small transformer ones (the ones meant for EL34's) then given a wall voltage supply of around 125v as it often is nowadays, the plate voltage should be more like 550v to 580v when the bias is adjusted correctly. If you want to leave it where it is, then operate the amp in a dark room, and watch the power tubes. If at any point in their operation, the plate glows orange or red, then you have them adjusted for too much current and you should readjust or suffer the consequences, which could be a resistor blowing out, a tube blowing out, or a transformer blowing out. Its a lot cheaper to set the bias correctly than to replace an output transformer.

Greg

Offline Isaac

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Re: To Bias or Not to Bias...That is the Question.
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2007, 09:59:15 am »
Another alternative would be to set the bias voltage to -55V, per manufacturer's instructions.
Isaac

Offline Soundmasterg

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Re: To Bias or Not to Bias...That is the Question.
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2007, 11:57:36 am »
Yes, that is another option, though with that method you don't know what the current draw is, and with the variable nature of tubes, especially today's stuff, you could end up with some tubes that can bias in an unsafe range. If it sounds good though and you don't have any red plates, then go for it.

Greg

Offline Spectrum II

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Re: To Bias or Not to Bias...That is the Question.
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2007, 07:04:32 pm »
So basically the formula is that you divide plate voltage from tube dissapation, right? What I don't get is that when you turn the bias up or down so goes the plate voltage. How do you know what figure to divide the dissapation from?