Author Topic: sceptre Qs - n00b questions  (Read 6714 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline perato

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 7
sceptre Qs - n00b questions
« on: July 22, 2007, 11:04:25 am »
hey all... i just picked up a sceptre head with the staggered 4x12 cab on craigslist. it appears to be pretty stock other than tubes and a couple replaced speakers. the previous owner said he'd had it for 15 years, put new tubes in it when he got it and never since, and used it lightly, playing it at bedroom level every 6 months or so for the time he owned it.

it's got a very bright sound, lacking in any real 'umph.' both the head and cab give that vibe. i tried the head through a soldano open back 2x12 and a hiwatt custom 50 through the cab and in both cases, it was sorta bright and toneless.

i figure the head needs a cap job, probably new power tubes and a grounded power plug to keep me from killing myself. the cab is a little more questionable.

what can i do to get this thing more 'toney?' is there any tubes i can throw in there other than kt88s to get a less clinical tone? would taking out some of the insulation open up the sound? also, i'm thinking this might be a good amp to use for my first tinkering project. am i right in that assumption or should i just take it to a tech and get some other cheap amp to kill myself with by playing with it's innards?

thanks in advance

Offline Isaac

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,904
Re: sceptre Qs - n00b questions
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2007, 08:22:19 am »
Sunns were the original hi-fi guitar and bass amps. If that's not the sound you wanted, why buy it? Sure, there are mods you could do to make it sound like something else, but again, why?

Anyway, this might sound crazy, but it's worth a try. If the amp sounds too bright to you, try turning down the treble.
Isaac

Offline perato

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 7
Re: sceptre Qs - n00b questions
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2007, 08:39:32 am »
uhh, thanks for the "friendly" reply issac.

maybe i should have been more specific, the amp is too bright as in brokenly bright. with the treble on 1 and the bass on 10, it's still way way too bright playing. i've played sunns before, i'm aware of their clean and bright character but this is beyond the pale. i may be a n00b to this forum but not playing guitar and something is up with this amp and i want to get the bottom of it and i was hoping i'd find some good help here. maybe not.

Offline JoeArthur

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 729
Re: sceptre Qs - n00b questions
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2007, 10:26:14 am »
uhh, thanks for the "friendly" reply issac.

maybe i should have been more specific, the amp is too bright as in brokenly bright. with the treble on 1 and the bass on 10, it's still way way too bright playing. i've played sunns before, i'm aware of their clean and bright character but this is beyond the pale. i may be a n00b to this forum but not playing guitar and something is up with this amp and i want to get the bottom of it and i was hoping i'd find some good help here. maybe not.

What kind of help are you seeking? Your choices are relatively limited with any forum.

We don't read minds. We don't know what you think is "toney". The amp is designed to use either 6550s or KT88 and we can't see a tube chart from here, but if you want to use some other tube, take it to a tech and tell him what you want to use and let him modify your amp.

If you believe the amp is broken, take it to a tech. There are three possibilities. The first is that something is broken. The second is that someone has modified the amp. The third is some combination of the first two. We can't see inside your amp from here.

We also don't know your abilities as far as DIY amp repair is concerned. Personally, I'm thinking rather limited - if it was otherwise you'd already have new tubes in it and if replacing 15 year old tubes didn't help, you'd have it apart and comparing the wiring with the schematic and taking voltage readings.

Offline basiklybass

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 304
  • My Sunn's
    • The Old Days
Re: sceptre Qs - n00b questions
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2007, 04:36:16 pm »
Are you plugging into the "bright" inputs or the "normals"? Could the mid-boost switch be broken or shorted and stuck in the "on" position?

I'd start with caps and tubes. And check the circuit for any mods as mentioned before.

Offline perato

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 7
Re: sceptre Qs - n00b questions
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2007, 04:57:56 pm »
i called my regular amp guy today (i'd avoided asking him at first just 'cause i'm thinking of working on it myself and i didn't him to know i might not be bringing him the business). he said a lack of low end doesn't sound like a cap or tube problem as when those go you tend to lose high end definition, clarity, and sparkle. he said it sounded more like an output transformer issue. does that ring true to anyone?

also, for what it's worth, it's the version with the contour knob and no mid switch. obviously, i've tried all yr standard troubleshooting including trying all inputs, a variety of guitars, using the amp w/ a different cab, etc. the problem is definitely in the box. as stated above, i can dime the bass and zero the treble and it still sounds very brittle and lifeless next to my twin RI (and that's a feat in and of itself).

Offline EdBass

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,914
Re: sceptre Qs - n00b questions
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2007, 06:10:11 pm »
You should probably take it to a tech, it could be anything. I wouldn't discount the filter caps, amps can do funky things when you starve the power supply. Even if they still test strong, they have a finite life span and should probably be replaced.
The good news is there is nothing ridiculously expensive in there, even the OT is reasonable at Triode.
http://www.triodeelectronics.com/

Offline JoeArthur

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 729
Re: sceptre Qs - n00b questions
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2007, 08:13:59 am »
i called my regular amp guy today (i'd avoided asking him at first just 'cause i'm thinking of working on it myself and i didn't him to know i might not be bringing him the business). he said a lack of low end doesn't sound like a cap or tube problem as when those go you tend to lose high end definition, clarity, and sparkle. he said it sounded more like an output transformer issue. does that ring true to anyone?

also, for what it's worth, it's the version with the contour knob and no mid switch. obviously, i've tried all yr standard troubleshooting including trying all inputs, a variety of guitars, using the amp w/ a different cab, etc. the problem is definitely in the box. as stated above, i can dime the bass and zero the treble and it still sounds very brittle and lifeless next to my twin RI (and that's a feat in and of itself).

No, it doesn't sound like an output transformer issue.

Click on this link to your schematic and follow along.

http://sunn.ampage.org/site/schematics/sceptre.gif

Scroll down until you can see the treble, bass and contour controls. Then look up until you see that dot connecting the vertical line from the treble control with a short section of horizontal line.

That component labeled 270PF connected between that dot and the treble control is a cap. This cap bypasses the high frequencies to the treble control.

To the left of the cap is a 56K resistor. This resistor feeds the signal to the bass and contour controls. Look at the arrow on the contour control and follow the line to the left and up and you will find a .022μF cap. This cap bypasses the higher frequencies to ground through the countour control. The contour control determines how much of the high frequencies are removed from the signal - the result is a bassy sound.

Notice there is another .022μF cap that has one end connected to both the bass and treble controls. This cap takes that bassy sound and couples it to the bass control which is acting sort of like a volume control. In the end, whatever bassy sound there is, will appear at the bottom of the treble control.

The treble control acts like a "blender". When you turn the control, that arrow in the diagram moves (pretend, ok?). When you turn the treble up, the arrow moves up and takes more of the high frequency signal through that 270pf cap. When you turn the treble down, the arrow moves down and takes more of the bassy sound from the bass control.

In a nutshell, that is normal operation. Now, what could go wrong to cause your symptoms?

Mentally, place that arrow in the position towards the bass control. Your symptom is that your sound is still way too bright. But in this position, the treble control should be getting most of that bassy sound. Obviously it isn't. What could cause that?

The most obvious is a lack of a connection between the treble and bass control. The wire connecting them could be broken, the treble pot could have an internal broken connection, the solder on either the treble or bass pot could be bad. Several possibilities.

Your other symptom is "lifeless" and lack of "umph" sound. I don't have a clue what you mean by that, but if it translates into a sound lacking bass and midrange, then this same cause could also result in that.

That's where I would start. If you have a meter that can measure resistance (ohms) you can check it pretty easy.

Offline perato

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 7
Re: sceptre Qs - n00b questions
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2007, 01:01:15 pm »
awesome. that's great info. i'm gonna to grab the amp from my practice space and check this out. thanks much.

Offline JoeArthur

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 729
Re: sceptre Qs - n00b questions
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2007, 03:41:19 pm »
awesome. that's great info. i'm gonna to grab the amp from my practice space and check this out. thanks much.

Let us know...

Offline basiklybass

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 304
  • My Sunn's
    • The Old Days
Re: sceptre Qs - n00b questions
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2007, 09:20:25 pm »
Again, thanks Joe, a wonderful guide through the schematic and interactions of the tone control system. Great job.

Offline perato

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 7
Re: sceptre Qs - n00b questions
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2007, 03:09:40 pm »
well, i finally got into this amp, life sort of intervened and kept me from working on it (crashed my bike, broke my collarbone and suffered nerve damage affecting my left index finger...fretting hand....sucks) but i just took a good look at this yesterday. turns out, it was in the tone circuit. there was a cold joint off the .022uf cap coming off the bass pot. resoldered the joint, bass control now does something...amp has bass and "life." also i retubed the whole thing and am currently waiting on a few caps to arrive to do a cap job. i bought the 30/20/20/20 @ 550v can cap CTech is selling on ebay. anyone used them?

Offline loudthud

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,171
Re: sceptre Qs - n00b questions
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2007, 06:40:57 pm »
I don't think anyone here as tried that cap yet. Let us know how it works out.

As to the speaker issue, it could be that one or more of the replaced speakers are connected out of phase. Touch a 1.5V or 9V battery across the leads to the cabinet and verify that all the speaker cones move in the same direction.

Offline perato

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 7
Re: sceptre Qs - n00b questions
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2007, 07:59:45 am »
ah, thanks, that's a simple good thought on the cabinet. i haven't bothered with that thing in months. i'll try that tomorrow.

i'll fill everyone in on the cap once i have it installed.