Sunn Model T VS

[[J.K.]]

I imagine these come up alot, so I apologize in advance.

I always hear Model Ts being talked about against old Orange/Matamp heads in the stoner realm. What I never understood is, with all the headroom an early Model T has, how does it compare to a Hiwatt? I mean, naturally they'll both break up differently, but that's beside the point. What I'm wondering is how the body and fullness compares to one another. They're both remarkable clean amps, to my understanding, so what are the pros and cons between the two? Has anyone here ever got to play both a Model T and an old dr103 Hiwatt?
 I'd imagine the overall tone (and ability to take pedals) is fairly comparable between the two, but I can never find much input about what the real sound of the early non-mid control Model Ts sound like. Everyone always points me back to Sunn O))) the band or talks about them in a Stoner/Doom context. I can never find sound clips or anything so I was hoping someone here would be able to chime in.

I already have my heavy bases covered with my Green amp, so I'm just wondering what other tricks the Model T amp can pull...

[stanner]

cant help ya much-never played a hiwatt-but i do have 3 of the early Ts and i just overdrive the hell out of them.
i used to play extremely clean 60s Fender Dual Showmans for Surf music and i have never found anything on the Ts that come close to that pristine sound.
but man w/ a good pedal are they the shit for super massive db levels.
s

[Johann]

yeah, my Model T starts to get dirty at about 3 on the volume knob, not really a clean amp at all, but a great one.

[cromag]

i was always in the understanding that the 1st gen model T's had head room to no end.  i only have a 2nd gen, so i certainly can't say for sure by experience.   if you want to hear some great 1st gen modelT tones in action, check anything by this guy called wino.   he only uses model T's.

[JoeArthur]

yeah, my Model T starts to get dirty at about 3 on the volume knob, not really a clean amp at all, but a great one.

Yep - and you'll find that to be true about all original model T amps - even the second generation.

Tube amps, especially the model T, have never had any great amount of headroom. It's the nature of their design.

The tube stages on most any amp are essentially running "wide open" - fully bypassed cathode resistors, no local feedback, high value plate resistors - anything and everything to get the most gain out of as few gain stages as possible. It's an economic thing.

In most tube amps you will find only two or three gain stages before the power amp. Amps with more stages came later, and these amps will have resistive dividers to cut back on gain so as not to overdrive the next gain stage too heavily. This causes what is commonly known as "farting".

The first generation model T only has two gain stages. It needs to boost the guitar level up to line level to drive the power amp. You can't waste gain with only two stages. What you give up by using the maximum amount of gain from a tube is... headroom.

You also need to look back at history - back when the model T was introduced (1973) consider what its potential customers were looking for in an amp. I guarantee it wasn't headroom.

[highleyg]

my model t will make your ears bleed before it would go into breakup. i also play guitar through a 412 cab but these things are 150 watt tube. they have plenty of clean headroom for me.

[[J.K.]]

This is interesting. This is why I wish I could hear some basic sound clips (just a regular guitar into the amp, no pedals, boosting, or preamp).

Hmm...
This is the problem with Sunn amps for me, I've always wanted to try some to get a feel for them, but there's a bullshit premium from people buying them solely off of them name that drives the price up and makes them harder to come across...
Oh well. I'm not givin' up yet, though.

[Isaac]

You really think there's a "bullshit premium from people buying them solely off of them name" compared to other amps? Seems highly unlikely to me.

[[J.K.]]

You really think there's a "bullshit premium from people buying them solely off of them name" compared to other amps? Seems highly unlikely to me.

Not to sound like a dick, but sotra, yeah.
I've seen alot of people at even small noise shows who have sunn cabs that they bought just due to the name. Plus, no matter what, a good portion of the people who get them haven't heard them before. I'm sure you could see that just by looking around Harmony Central. It's simple: there's a fixed supply, but the demand is higher. The premium comes from having to compete with similar people to the ones I've seen and heard from at shows and on message boards.
You disagree?
I realize I probably worded it a little more harshly than I intended, but I think that seems like an empirical case...

[JoeArthur]

I don't think people buy vintage Sunn equipment simply due to the name.

As an example: take a look at Fender - they simply refuse to learn the lesson that a name or brand, in and of itself, doesn't sell diddly squat. For example:

o the first solid state amplifier series.
o the silverface tube amp "improvements".
o the second solid state amplifier series.
o many more...

Since they didn't learn it with their own name - they tried "Sunn" to see if it would sell disguised fender amps any better their own.

Nope.

There will always be a demand for quality, regardless of the name.

[Isaac]

Yes, I disagree. Sure, there are people who buy equipment based on reputation and marketing. But compare the sound, build quality and price of a Sunn with that of a Fender, Marshall, or Hiwatt, and I don't see the Sunn as having any premium at all. If anything, they're still undervalued in the marketplace.

[Iron Mtn]

It's really weird, back in 1985 I bought my first piece of Sunn gear (a 2x15 cab) and it reeked of quality, from then on I was hooked. When it comes to Sunn, I think the so called hype is warranted. You're not buying just a name, you're buying quality. I think 30+ years and still going strong is proof enough.

As far as the Model T goes, plain and simple it's a workhorse amp that is no bullshit. Model T's were way ahead of their time and hold up really well (and more often then not) blow away most modern amps. I never hear the same gripes about Model T's that I do of Mesas or the current line of Marshalls.

[djc]

my 200s is 40 years old.  I bought it for $400bucks.  spent another $150 on tubes caps and clean up.  $600 or so later I have an amp that is far superior to any of the $2000 plus amps I was looking at (including the fender/Sunn remakes).  I played my buddy's Sonaro alot and found that was the sound I was looking for, mine sounds even better than his

it has volume, bass and treble controls.  plug in, turn it on, play.  no fiddling, it just sounds great.

I think the bullshit premium is worth it.

I can't wait until it's worth $10,000, I'll still play it, not sell it because it simply does have the best sound that I have found out there.  sound like that under $1500 is a steal

[n!k]

Definitely bought my sunn gear based on the sound, much less the name. Although I think the sparkly silver grille and black cabinets look mighty sexy too.