I don't get it

[johnk]

A piece of used gear is worth exactly what someone will pay for it.
Not what some pseudo "expert" thinks it's worth, unless that "expert" is making a valid cash offer for the piece. Talk isn't just cheap; it's free.
I get chaffed whenever I read posts referring to the value of a particular item; rather than post "it's worth around $300-$350", how about stepping up to the plate and offering $300 cash? THAT would have relevance
If you don't have the cash, who really cares what your "learned opinion" is?

Since being a bass player for 41 years and working in music stores since 1973 (and opening my own "brick and mortar shop" from 1985-2007), i do consider myself an "expert" (not a "psuedo expert") on the value of musical instruments.  I have been repairing guitars and amps during for 3 1/2 decades and determine the value of instruments based on its original retail price, its current market price, the quality of components used to build it, the workmanship involved, its originality, its rarity, and its condition. I have often said that if you don't recognize a good deal when you see it, then you don't deserve one.

johnk

[EdBass]

 

A piece of used gear is worth exactly what someone will pay for it.
Not what some pseudo "expert" thinks it's worth, unless that "expert" is making a valid cash offer for the piece. Talk isn't just cheap; it's free.
I get chaffed whenever I read posts referring to the value of a particular item; rather than post "it's worth around $300-$350", how about stepping up to the plate and offering $300 cash? THAT would have relevance
If you don't have the cash, who really cares what your "learned opinion" is?

Since being a bass player for 41 years and working in music stores since 1973 (and opening my own "brick and mortar shop" from 1985-2007), i do consider myself an "expert" (not a "psuedo expert") on the value of musical instruments.  I have been repairing guitars and amps during for 3 1/2 decades and determine the value of instruments based on its original retail price, its current market price, the quality of components used to build it, the workmanship involved, its originality, its rarity, and its condition. I have often said that if you don't recognize a good deal when you see it, then you don't deserve one.

johnk

Sorry to have apparently hit a nerve, my rant was not directed at anyone specifically.

Regretfully though, I must stand by my assessment of gear values. If you use your vast musical gear acumen to arrive at a value for a piece that you are not willing or able to back up with CASH, why would anyone even care what your opinion is?
It doesn't matter what a person’s real or even embellished background is; money talks and b*llshit walks.

Here’s an example; 
If you have never even walked in to a music store and feel a particular 200S is worth $2500, and you put up the money, well then, that 200S was worth $2500. Likewise, if you were the seller of this theoretical 200S and were asking $2500, and some moron actually paid up for it, well then, that 200S was worth $2500.
Worth $2500 to the buyer and the seller, because both parties agreed on a value, a deal was made and money changed hands.
I always suggest "completed auctions" on eBay when looking for values. While I think eBay runs on the high side of real world transactions, and is tainted by non paying buyers and 12 yr old children, it at least it reflects what someone was actually willing to pay instead of some "experts" opinion.

To summarize; JohnK, if you are willing to back up your opinion of a pieces value with your own hard earned cash, your opinion definitely has value. On the other hand, if you spout out theoretical numbers based on your experience, opinion, gut feeling, tarot cards, tea leaves, etc...
Who freekin' cares?

[johnk]

over the years i have put up my hard earned cash and paid more that the going rate for vintage gear than most people, since i can easily recognize a value when i see it. I'm sorry, but as far as your "assessment" goes, and not knowing of your background, i must take your opinion and statements as the same worthless words as those that you criticize others for.

believe it or not, there are experts and very knowledgeable people that give their advice freely and i tend to value someone's opinion if it comes from an honorable person with experience. its not always all about dollars and cents, but (it appears) to you, it is.

..............and just because some idiot pays $2500.00 cash for a Sunn 200s DOESN'T mean that its worth it, it means that he is a fool.

[loudthud]

An ebay auction for a Model T just ended for a bid of $1525.00. You can see how the winnning bidder just wanted it really bad and kept out bidding all others. We'll have to wait a week or two to see if it gets re-listed. Probably needs new tubes and a cap job. Then there is the weird wire soldered to the speaker jack and the apparently missing circuit breaker. The seller isn't too knowledgeable but at least he turned the amp on and tried it. Most pawn shops won't go that far. I've seen Model T 's in much better condition go for less. IMHO this is more than the amp is worth because of the unknown condition of the caps and tubes. It would make more sense to pay $1000 for a lessor example and get it re-tubed and re-capped by a reputable tech.

It's been well known for years that vintage guitars sell for about 2x the USA price in Japan. At every guitar show there a Japanese buyers with belly bags full of cash scarfing up all the good pieces.

[johnk]

An ebay auction for a Model T just ended for a bid of $1525.00. You can see how the winnning bidder just wanted it really bad and kept out bidding all others. We'll have to wait a week or two to see if it gets re-listed. Probably needs new tubes and a cap job. Then there is the weird wire soldered to the speaker jack and the apparently missing circuit breaker. The seller isn't too knowledgeable but at least he turned the amp on and tried it. Most pawn shops won't go that far. I've seen Model T 's in much better condition go for less. IMHO this is more than the amp is worth because of the unknown condition of the caps and tubes. It would make more sense to pay $1000 for a lessor example and get it re-tubed and re-capped by a reputable tech.

It's been well known for years that vintage guitars sell for about 2x the USA price in Japan. At every guitar show there a Japanese buyers with belly bags full of cash scarfing up all the good pieces.

Hi loudthud,
I agree with you completely. Most vintage model T's have been going for $1,000- $1,400 on ebay for the last two years and most, if not all, of them were nicer than the one that just sold for $1525.00. i was surprised to see it go for that much, especially with gas prices what they are now. unless the buyer is an amp tech, he's going to be putting a few more hundred into that one to get it up to snuff.

johnk

[EdBass]

over the years i have put up my hard earned cash and paid more that the going rate for vintage gear than most people, since i can easily recognize a value when i see it.

That's great, and I'm sure you have a lot of experience with gear. Now, if you actually put up the cash for these said values when you recognize them, you have established the true value of the gear, at least it's value to you and the person you bought it from.

I'm sorry, but as far as your "assessment" goes, and not knowing of your background, i must take your opinion and statements as the same worthless words as those that you criticize others for.

I back my "worthless" words with greenbacks, I don't speculate with worthless words. If I give advice on gear prices, I would be willing to lay down the cash myself. And as a matter of record, I have, even with posters on this forum.

believe it or not, there are experts and very knowledgeable people that give their advice freely and i tend to value someone's opinion if it comes from an honorable person with experience. its not always all about dollars and cents, but (it appears) to you, it is.

No shortage of "knowledgeable people that give their advice freely", that's for certain. Almost everything I know I have learned from such people, those types are an invaluable asset. But when it comes down to pulling out the checkbook, the advisors I pay attention to are the ones who say things like; "I paid, or so and so paid $X for that piece a couple of days/weeks/months/years ago", rather than the "experts" who say "I think that gear is worth $X because I'm a long time gear afficionado and I surf the net a lot"

..............and just because some idiot pays $2500.00 cash for a Sunn 200s DOESN'T mean that its worth it, it means that he is a fool.

Well, I can't argue with that logic, exept to ammend your your statement to read;
and just because some idiot pays $2500.00 cash for a Sunn 200s DOESN'T mean that its worth it (TO ANYONE ELSE ON THIS PLANET), it means that he is a fool.

[EdBass]

An ebay auction for a Model T just ended for a bid of $1525.00. You can see how the winnning bidder just wanted it really bad and kept out bidding all others. We'll have to wait a week or two to see if it gets re-listed. Probably needs new tubes and a cap job. Then there is the weird wire soldered to the speaker jack and the apparently missing circuit breaker. The seller isn't too knowledgeable but at least he turned the amp on and tried it. Most pawn shops won't go that far. I've seen Model T 's in much better condition go for less. IMHO this is more than the amp is worth because of the unknown condition of the caps and tubes. It would make more sense to pay $1000 for a lessor example and get it re-tubed and re-capped by a reputable tech.

It's been well known for years that vintage guitars sell for about 2x the USA price in Japan. At every guitar show there a Japanese buyers with belly bags full of cash scarfing up all the good pieces.

Hi loudthud,
I agree with you completely. Most vintage model T's have been going for $1,000- $1,400 on ebay for the last two years and most, if not all, of them were nicer than the one that just sold for $1525.00. i was surprised to see it go for that much, especially with gas prices what they are now. unless the buyer is an amp tech, he's going to be putting a few more hundred into that one to get it up to snuff.

johnk

So, just to beat a dead horse a little more...
John, what would you pay for a vintage Model T? You obviously know old Sunn gear, and even if you aren't in the market for a Model T, you certainly know that plenty of people are. If I had a Model T available in comparable condition as the one that sold on eBay, what would you personally be willing to pay for it?
That would be a useful value speculation.
Keep in mind, it's OK to lowball as long as you would actually pay that amount. I do it all the time, occasionally I even get lucky!

[johnk]

Hi Ed,
I have repaired and serviced alot of Model T's over the years and while they are a very nice amp, they are not an item that I have any desire to buy (just not my cup of tea). I much prefer the Sunn 2000S. I can tell you that I was bidding on a 2000S about a month and a half ago on ebay and while it was at only $580.00 with a few minutes to go, i set my limit to $1400.00 and thought that i would surely win it, but the other bidders passed me up in the last few seconds by a little over $200.00. It was actually more than I wanted to spend but i really wanted another one. Now I'm glad that i didn't win it because I recently aquired one for almost half of that. I bought it to keep it and use it, and not to turn around and sell it, so if it appreciates, great. If not, that's fine too. I just love the sound of them and it brings back the memories of the first used one that I bought in while working at Whittier Plaza Music in 1973.

BTW, i have been restoring vintage guitars, basses and amps since 1973 which is way before the net even existed, so I didn't gain my experience by "surfing". Some of my history includes that I designed the BC Rich Mockingbird for Bernie Rico in December of 1975, and worked as a field consultant to Leo Fender in 1979 when he was at G&L. Leo was truly a great man and a heck of a nice guy.

john

[george]

Okay I'll bite. If you are discussing fluctuating Sunn gear prices - explain why Sunn Beta Bass amps seem to be fetching high prices recently? I can remember when they were "cheap" - I guess I'm old??

[johnk]

Okay I'll bite. If you are discussing fluctuating Sunn gear prices - explain why Sunn Beta Bass amps seem to be fetching high prices recently? I can remember when they were "cheap" - I guess I'm old??

that's a very good question. i have no clue as to why that would be. i can understand why the concert and coliseum prices are slightly appreciating (especially the silver faced ones) but not the alpha or beta series. the solid state amps are still not all that expensive, however i did see a concert bass amp with a 2-15 cab go for over $1K about two months ago which i though was too much for it. it's possible that the buyer just wanted the reflex 2-15 cab which are getting fairly hard to obtain.

[fatlizzard]

I believe e-bay does artificially drive prices up by creating bidding wars between buyers!
I have been looking for a Maestro USS1 for quite a while,I used to own one but I sold it about 15 years ago when I wasn't playing much, now I would really like to have one again, One just sold on e-bay for $1,375.00 plus $30.00 shipping I set my limit to $600.00, it didn't go above that until the final hours of the listing and was basically a battle between 2 bidders!
I wonder if the winning bidder realises the same unit was on craigslist in atlanta for $1,100.00.
The photos and serial no. on e-bay and craigslist match so I know it is the same unit! Of course it is probably worth what the winning bidder paid for it to HIM!
Damn E-Bay!!!!!!!

[EdBass]

Hi Ed,
I have repaired and serviced alot of Model T's over the years and while they are a very nice amp, they are not an item that I have any desire to buy (just not my cup of tea). I much prefer the Sunn 2000S. I can tell you that I was bidding on a 2000S about a month and a half ago on ebay and while it was at only $580.00 with a few minutes to go, i set my limit to $1400.00 and thought that i would surely win it, but the other bidders passed me up in the last few seconds by a little over $200.00. It was actually more than I wanted to spend but i really wanted another one. Now I'm glad that i didn't win it because I recently aquired one for almost half of that. I bought it to keep it and use it, and not to turn around and sell it, so if it appreciates, great. If not, that's fine too. I just love the sound of them and it brings back the memories of the first used one that I bought in while working at Whittier Plaza Music in 1973.

I agree about the Model T's, I'm also a 1000 series Sunn fan. I've never paid over $750 for a head, but I would probably be real tempted to go $1000 for another mint early GZ34 one. I think thats safe from an investment standpoint (as far as I know they aren't making any more of them) and I'm partial to the all tube mojo, which is probably a moot point because I've never sold a 2000S, I just keep stacking them up in my shop.
Also I've already got mostly SS rectified ones, including a 2000S rig with the dual matching D140F loaded 2000S cabs that I bought from the original owner (I think it was an endorsement deal but I'm not sure) a couple of years ago.
Now thats "thunder"...

BTW, i have been restoring vintage guitars, basses and amps since 1973 which is way before the net even existed, so I didn't gain my experience by "surfing". Some of my history includes that I designed the BC Rich Mockingbird for Bernie Rico in December of 1975, and worked as a field consultant to Leo Fender in 1979 when he was at G&L. Leo was truly a great man and a heck of a nice guy.

Our history is about the same vintage, and I'm a SoCal boy myself. I've never had the patience for restoration though, I was mostly involved with live sound, studio gofering and new equipment manufacturing in the 70's. And all the while aspiring to be a rockstar, of course.
I met Leo at a NAMM show, at least I'm pretty sure it was a NAMM show, in around '79, or '80, maybe '81 (I think it was the same year as the Floyd "Wall" gig at the Sports Arena). My memory is a little hazy from that era...
Anyway, I remember being impressed with how accessable and patient he was with all of my sophomoric questions.

Also, I have tried to take care NOT to aim my tirades towards anyone specifically, and to keep them conceptual rather than personal. You certainly don't have to get defensive about your experience to validate your opinions.