Author Topic: sunn concert lead ohm question  (Read 7892 times)

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Offline louis

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sunn concert lead ohm question
« on: May 21, 2008, 11:12:25 am »
I have a sunn concert lead (200watts at 4ohms) I want to hook up to a 2X10. There is a good deal right now in my hometown of Montreal on 8 ohm 2X10 (25o watts rms). Is it "dangerous" to hook up the sunn to a cab that is 8 ohms?

Thanks
Louis

Offline basiklybass

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Re: sunn concert lead ohm question
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2008, 12:36:02 pm »
No

Offline kasanovich

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Re: sunn concert lead ohm question
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2008, 08:38:44 am »
I have this same head- really great sound out of my Traynor 412 with Celestion Modern Lead 70's.  A really underrated head. I can't understand why people hate on solidstate- this thing is insanely sound in its construction and functions great, plus i never have to turn it up about 4!

Offline Isaac

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Re: sunn concert lead ohm question
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2008, 03:06:01 pm »
I can't remember who it was, but some famous rock guitarist back in the late 70's or early 80's said that the whole tube mystique was a load of codswallop, and that the best distortion available was a Sunn Concert Lead turned all the way up. Rumor was that he had the obligatory Marshalls onstage, but a Sunn Concert Lead backstage, the only amp with a mike on it.
Isaac

Offline djc

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Re: sunn concert lead ohm question
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2008, 04:44:52 pm »
I've got one too run through a traynor 212.  sounds awesome, and from a tube amp lover, very tube like in response.

Offline stanner

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Re: sunn concert lead ohm question
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2008, 04:31:53 pm »
I can't remember who it was, but some famous rock guitarist back in the late 70's or early 80's said that the whole tube mystique was a load of codswallop, and that the best distortion available was a Sunn Concert Lead turned all the way up. Rumor was that he had the obligatory Marshalls onstage, but a Sunn Concert Lead backstage, the only amp with a mike on it.


sounds like the great fatsby-Leslie West.
saw him back in the day and it was all Marshall on stage-(but someone was using a flash for pix and you could see right thru the grill cloth of all the cabs ...and they were e m p t y) -but in interviews all he talked was SUNN.
butt,...maybe not him.
s
AMPSSOUNDBETTERLOUDER

Offline george

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Urban legends
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2008, 10:07:47 pm »
The best tube vs solidstate legend I've heard is how a tube "watt" is x times that of a solidstate "watt". Never do get a good objective proof (i.e. stands up to scientific method, objective reality, ohms law, etc) but I love to hear the story.

Offline Isaac

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Re: sunn concert lead ohm question
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2008, 01:09:25 pm »
I can't remember who it was, but some famous rock guitarist back in the late 70's or early 80's said that the whole tube mystique was a load of codswallop, and that the best distortion available was a Sunn Concert Lead turned all the way up. Rumor was that he had the obligatory Marshalls onstage, but a Sunn Concert Lead backstage, the only amp with a mike on it.


sounds like the great fatsby-Leslie West.
saw him back in the day and it was all Marshall on stage-(but someone was using a flash for pix and you could see right thru the grill cloth of all the cabs ...and they were e m p t y) -but in interviews all he talked was SUNN.
butt,...maybe not him.
s

That's a possibility. The one time I saw him, he was playing through Sunn amps. Amazing that almost no one went to the show, but he played as if the place was packed to the rafters. Awesome guitarist.
Isaac

Offline Isaac

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Re: Urban legends
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2008, 01:10:56 pm »
The best tube vs solidstate legend I've heard is how a tube "watt" is x times that of a solidstate "watt". Never do get a good objective proof (i.e. stands up to scientific method, objective reality, ohms law, etc) but I love to hear the story.

I think I can explain that. If anyone is interested.
Isaac

Offline djc

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Re: sunn concert lead ohm question
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2008, 09:26:09 pm »
giver Isaac, it'll make for a good read

Offline wilddeath

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Re: sunn concert lead ohm question
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2008, 02:10:10 am »
I can't imagine that your trying to achieve tremendous volume by plugging into a 2x10.  Although, you still will. 
I had this weird cabinet that was a 2x10 - 8 ohm and i'd played my concert lead out of it cranked up many times.  the speakers were just standard CTS from the day and all in all i got a crunchy loud sound, more mid than anything... always though Greg Ginn/Black Flag sounding.  Never put it past 5, and this was the clean channel.  Those speakers are dead now, perhaps procede with caution.  good luck! 

Offline pickinatit

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Re: sunn concert lead ohm question
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2008, 09:23:21 am »
I can't remember who it was, but some famous rock guitarist back in the late 70's or early 80's said that the whole tube mystique was a load of codswallop, and that the best distortion available was a Sunn Concert Lead turned all the way up. Rumor was that he had the obligatory Marshalls onstage, but a Sunn Concert Lead backstage, the only amp with a mike on it.


sounds like the great fatsby-Leslie West.
saw him back in the day and it was all Marshall on stage-(but someone was using a flash for pix and you could see right thru the grill cloth of all the cabs ...and they were e m p t y) -but in interviews all he talked was SUNN.
butt,...maybe not him.
s

That's a possibility. The one time I saw him, he was playing through Sunn amps. Amazing that almost no one went to the show, but he played as if the place was packed to the rafters. Awesome guitarist.

His solo in the song "Theme For An Imaginary Western"  is a true rock and roll classic IMO.  In fact, back in the day,  my  Frat Bros. and I ranked that tune right alongside  "Stairway To Heaven"  as an all-time great "Party Anthem"  Ha Ha

Offline Isaac

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Re: sunn concert lead ohm question
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2008, 12:09:02 pm »
giver Isaac, it'll make for a good read
Okay.

First off, a watt is a watt. Anyone who knows anything about electricity knows that. One volt at one amp, one coulomb per second, and all that. Yet, it persists that "tube watts" are louder than "solid state watts". Why?

It has to do with distortion characteristics and compression. Transistors are pretty linear devices. Any properly designed transistor amp operating within its envelope will put out a very close approximation to the input signal. And when they're not properly designed, they tend to sound bad. A properly designed tube amp is pretty linear as well. But near the edges of the envelope, different things happen for each amp.

When any amp reaches its limits, it starts to clip. Harmonic distortion increases. It's inaudible at first, up to at least 1% by most accounts. Transistor amps tend to do what is called hard clipping, cutting off the top and bottom of the signal as if you sliced it with a razor blade. This results in all odd-order harmonics: third, fifth and so on. A lot of those don't blend well with other frequencies. The third harmonic is an octave and a fifth above the fundamental, which isn't usually bad, but the fifth is two octaves and a third, and that third will always be out of tune with the same note being played elsewhere. It gets worse after that. Bottom line is that odd order harmonics don't sound all that good.

Tube amps are less linear at their limits. Instead of sharply clipping off the top and bottom of the waveform, they trend to round it off, and do so asymmetrically. That is, the rounding tends to be different on top and on the bottom. The result of this is still harmonic distortion, but along with the odd order harmonics there are a lot of even order harmonics as well. Even order harmonics sound better. In fact, most people think adding a little second order distortion (one octave higher) makes music sound better than it does without it. Fourth order is two octaves. It's nore noticeable, but still nowhere near as jarring as fifth, or even third.

So, what does all this have to do with "tube watts"? Simple. At low levels most amps sound pretty good. The output signal is clean, and pretty well represents the input signal. As the signal reaches the edge of the operating envelope, solid state amps start to sound, well, distorted, and usually not in a good way. So, if the amp is a 100 watt amp, you're going to get 100 watts out of it, and not much more. The distortion on the peaks will keep you from turning it up much higher. And the average output will, of course, be significantly lower than that.

The tube amp, however, still sounds fine. You keep turning it up, and instead of sounding distorted, it sounds harmonically richer, and fuller. It's those even order harmonics. The odd order harmonics are still there, but they're mixed in with the evens, and aren't as obvious. Also, 1% distortion on the SS amp is almost all odds, but 1% on the tube amp is a mix of odds and evens. By the time you reach the point where the distortion starts to become objectionable, the gain is much higher. The average output will be noticeably higher than with the SS amp, even though the amp is still only capable of 100 clean watts, same as the SS amp.

So you can play the same wattage tube amp noticeably louder than you can the SS amp, and have it sound good, maybe even better. How often have you heard that a certain amp has to be turned up to really make it sing? It's the harmonic distortion added to the signal, amking it sound richer and fuller.

Of course, a lot of this is made moot by the push-pull architecture, which cancels out the even order harmonics in the output stage. That's why a lot of guitarists like single-ended amps. More even order harmonics.
Isaac

Offline djc

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Re: sunn concert lead ohm question
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2008, 09:58:15 am »
and thus endeth's today's sermon.

good job!  you are a wealth of information, thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.