What do YOU think???

[djc]

as far as I'm concerned I would still look for the original as opposed to a 'clone' or whatever.  i don't know, original mojo or something.  I have a few traynors, and a couple sunns.  why would I buy something based off the original when the original is readily available?  they have to become very scarce for me to shell out for a new old skool wired amp.

as for the low wattage boutique styled amps bass or guitar.  giver.  that is probably where you would sell some.  or the customs.  somebody comes in with a specific request.  my favorite wattages?  40-60 for bass driving a 215 so it can get growly and nasty and under 15watts class A for guitar.

came in late, skimmed the thread hope I'm not redundant
just 2cents

[Ryan Phelps]

Some more random thoughts on a Sunn clone. Triode Electronics produces a kit to build your own Dynaco Mark III power amp knock-off. As we all know, the first "Smiley Face" heads were simply the Dynaco power amp with a 2-tube pre-amp (also adapted from a Dynaco pre-amp) built into a small aluminum "Bud" box. All this was mounted in a simple tolexed cabinet. I think it would be fairly simple to gear up for a small production run of these.
Triode also offers the transformers separately (I've used them to repair failed Sunn transformers...a direct drop-in replacement). So you could make a clone of the 200S. You'd need have the chassis made, but the point-to-point wiring would be pretty simple.
Again, probably a limited demand for these, but not too difficult to do.

Ryan

[EdBass]

Some more random thoughts on a Sunn clone. Triode Electronics produces a kit to build your own Dynaco Mark III power amp knock-off. As we all know, the first "Smiley Face" heads were simply the Dynaco power amp with a 2-tube pre-amp (also adapted from a Dynaco pre-amp) built into a small aluminum "Bud" box. All this was mounted in a simple tolexed cabinet. I think it would be fairly simple to gear up for a small production run of these.
Triode also offers the transformers separately (I've used them to repair failed Sunn transformers...a direct drop-in replacement). So you could make a clone of the 200S. You'd need have the chassis made, but the point-to-point wiring would be pretty simple.
Again, probably a limited demand for these, but not too difficult to do.

Ryan

Probably a little too easy in fact. 
I'm thinking about something a bit more sophisticated but retaining the classic Sunn vibe/tone. Besides, I think it would be sort of sacrilegious to just knock off Conrad Sundholm's original idea.
I'm cooking up some designs and cost analysis projections, that should keep me busy for a few months.
Again I appreciate all of the input, it's easy to get creatively "mired down" unless you can bounce some ideas off of others and get some fresh perspectives.

[Ryan Phelps]

Hey EdBass!
I agree that it would be good to add some modern innovations to the classic Sunn design. But I wouldn't be too worried about copying Conrad's "original" design. The "Smiley Face" amps were literally Dynaco Mark III power amps with the pre-amp adapted from Dynaco designs, so it wasn't all that original. But it was a smart idea to adapt a hi-fi amp (read clean and undistorted) for bass amplification. The 200S was improved but not radically different; compare the schematics. In retrospect, I'm surprised Sunn didn't run into legal problems with Dynaco (perhaps they did?).
No criticism here, after all Leo Fender adapted existing Western Electric designs for his amps as well. And Jim Marshall based his first amp on Fender's 5F6A Bassman (with some tweaks). I think Conrad was doing the same thing. And we may have different ideas about what "original" means. I guess the point is that truly original engineering has been rather limited in the last few decades of vacuum tube amp design. Improvements, variations, adaptations for sure, but it's been based upon a backbone of vacuum tube amp designs that stretch back around 80 years.
Take a look at Ted Weber's 6S100 schematic and you'll see changes (or improvements if you will)....different tone stack, added presence and master volume, etc. Lots of ideas borrowed from other amp designs, but adapted to a push-pull KT88 output section. So I think Ted's approach was much like the one you propose, build upon an existing, classic design. That's really been the history of vacuum tube intrument amps in my opinion. Keep us all posted on your progress; I think this is a cool idea. We'll all be very interested to see what you come up with!

Ryan>

[EdBass]

Hey EdBass!
I agree that it would be good to add some modern innovations to the classic Sunn design. But I wouldn't be too worried about copying Conrad's "original" design. The "Smiley Face" amps were literally Dynaco Mark III power amps with the pre-amp adapted from Dynaco designs, so it wasn't all that original. But it was a smart idea to adapt a hi-fi amp (read clean and undistorted) for bass amplification. The 200S was improved but not radically different; compare the schematics. In retrospect, I'm surprised Sunn didn't run into legal problems with Dynaco (perhaps they did?).
No criticism here, after all Leo Fender adapted existing Western Electric designs for his amps as well. And Jim Marshall based his first amp on Fender's 5F6A Bassman (with some tweaks). I think Conrad was doing the same thing. And we may have different ideas about what "original" means. I guess the point is that truly original engineering has been rather limited in the last few decades of vacuum tube amp design. Improvements, variations, adaptations for sure, but it's been based upon a backbone of vacuum tube amp designs that stretch back around 80 years.
Take a look at Ted Weber's 6S100 schematic and you'll see changes (or improvements if you will)....different tone stack, added presence and master volume, etc. Lots of ideas borrowed from other amp designs, but adapted to a push-pull KT88 output section. So I think Ted's approach was much like the one you propose, build upon an existing, classic design. That's really been the history of vacuum tube intrument amps in my opinion. Keep us all posted on your progress; I think this is a cool idea. We'll all be very interested to see what you come up with!

Ryan>

Thanks for the input, Ryan. I guess I wasn't clear, when I said " knock off Conrad Sundholm's original idea" I meant his idea to shove a Mark III in a box with a modified PAM-1 for bass guitar use.
A true masterpiece of ingenuity, IMO!
While I'm no EE, I have spent considerable hours studying and playing with amplifier circuits. I have several '67-'70 100S and 200S amps as well as a split chassis Sunn for test reference, and I'm pretty familiar with the Mark III. I built my first and second Dynakits in the early 70's for my home stereo. My buddy's Dad had a pair of McIntosh MC60's and they were the grail, this was my "poor kid's" version. 

The availability and pricing of parts (particularly the Triode iron) weigh heavily in my 200S "clone" concept.
As far as legal issues with Dynaco, I've always assumed that Conrad used Dynakits and not factory built Dynacos for the early amps, and if that's so he essentially just bought parts from Dynaco; not a manufactured amplifier. I'll bet it's an interesting story none the less! 
Regardless, as you inferred; Ain't nothin' new in tube amp design. It's pretty much "fair game" from a proprietary design perspective.
I've got rough circuit design sketches and notes ranging from near stock 100S, to 100S/200S hybrid tone stacks, to modified beyond recognition circuits. It's easy to get carried away, IMO much of the beauty of the original Sunn gear was in it's relative simplicity.
Truthfully, the amp is the easy part. The hard part is accurately gauging public acceptance and advance marketing planning to avoid a fiscal "black hole".

My right brain is ready to commission chassis and boxes, but I'm old enough and wise enough to realize that if I can't reconcile my left brain with it, this idea won't get past the "talking" stage.   

[Jagermonster]

One of the biggest reasons I bought my Solarus was because it was the cheapest amp I could find that was true point to point.

I think it would be amazing if Sunn could make a comeback, so long as they stuck to their roots. It would really make me happy as a hobbyist and guitar nerd to walk into a guitar shop and see new Sunn amps that I knew were built to the same specs as the originals.

As far as a low powered 200S succeeding commercially, I can't speak to that, since I only play guitar. But I can say with absolute certainty, if I could buy a brand new Model T, built to the exact same standard as they were in 1974, with nary a PCB to be seen, I would do it in a heart beat.

[Ryan Phelps]

Hey Edbass,
Thanks for taking my comments as they were intended. I did not intend to flame you.....I think we are totally on the same wavelength. Sorry if I misconstrued your comments. Yeah, I 'm sure Sunn purchased Dynaco kits and just assembled them. I agree with you.....making the amp is the easy part (and of course would be the fun part). As you say, the trick is figuring out the market acceptance... is this a commercially viable  endeavor, or just an affair of the heart? I can see how one would do this just for the fun / cool factor!  Thanks man!
Ryan

[HRobert]

EdBass

Being a long time Sunn fan, I'm excited at the prospect that a "clone" might be developed and possibly be on the market, and from what I've read in the posts, a lot of people feel the same way.

What kind of speakers would be used in the new amps? Would they be a JBL clone or a similar speaker of similar output? Part of Sunn's sound quality, clarity, and volume can be directly contributed to Conrad's use of JBL speakers. Back in the day the JBL 's were far and above any other speaker in efficiency and sound quality.  The efficiency of the speaker made the 40 and 60 watt Sunns sound like they had much more power.  According to Fender ads, Eminence manufactures some sort of a D130 clone for their "65 Twin Reverb Custom 15" amp.  There is a picture of the amp - front and back - on their website under their Vintage amps. The speaker magnet is ceramic and kind of looks like a JBL "E" series. Check out the web site.  Perhaps a similar speaker could be contracted for the Sunn project.

Several people have brought up the subject of the amps power - citing that they didn't think that a 60 watt amp would be powerful enough.  Seems to me that a lot of musicians are now mikeing the amps, or running direct into a PA system. However, for those who do want more power would it be possible to combine the preamp section of say a 220S, 100S, or Sentura  with the power amp section of the Coliseum PA head which had 4 KT88's and more power?  I'm not that well versed with electronics so I'm not sure if what I suggest can even be done.

All in all, I believe that a Sunn clone, true to the original ( as much as possible - or even with some added features ) hand wired, would be a worthwhile project...even if it does turn out to be a limited production amp.

Rob

[Soundmasterg]

What you suggested is basically the 2000S, which was around 120-150 watts RMS. Thats enough power to keep up with a 40 watt tube amp that a guitarist is playing, but to keep up with more than that and still be clean, you need bigger power, or mic through the PA, which changes the sound and feel on stage, which affects the player. There is a reason amps like the Ampeg SVT (300 watts RMS) are still so coveted, and expensive. You could make something along the lines of the Sunns that would be similar, but it would be very expensive and heavy!

greg

[Johnny]

Well, I am not a Sunn fanatic, enthusiast more likely and a bass player. IMO 60-80 watts is not enough to gig with. And for what it would cost to build one a person could most likely buy a real 200s and have it retubed and re-capped.

Fender got it right when they produced the 300t. It is an excellent example of a modern all-tube bass amplifier. I really don't think bassists give a hoot if an amp is point to point wired or circuit board. It's performance that matters.

I have a 200S and wouldn't consider using it at even the smallest gig. I love the 300t through it's 215, but that head is just so darn heavy it's a pain to transport. The 215 is big but not terribly heavy and easy to tip into the back of the van.

What would appear to me as a bassist would be at least a 200 watt head that weighs less than 50 pounds and has the Sunn tone and vibe.

[HRobert]

What you suggested is basically the 2000S, which was around 120-150 watts RMS. Thats enough power to keep up with a 40 watt tube amp that a guitarist is playing, but to keep up with more than that and still be clean, you need bigger power, or mic through the PA, which changes the sound and feel on stage, which affects the player. There is a reason amps like the Ampeg SVT (300 watts RMS) are still so coveted, and expensive. You could make something along the lines of the Sunns that would be similar, but it would be very expensive and heavy!

greg

Greg,

From what I read, EdBass would like to keep the amp head at 24" wide - as were the early Conrad designs.  The 1000S, 1200S, etc. had 4 KT88/6550's but were all 30" wide amps.  The original Coliseum PA head was 24" wide and had 4 KT88's.

Rob

[Soundmasterg]

What you suggested is basically the 2000S, which was around 120-150 watts RMS. Thats enough power to keep up with a 40 watt tube amp that a guitarist is playing, but to keep up with more than that and still be clean, you need bigger power, or mic through the PA, which changes the sound and feel on stage, which affects the player. There is a reason amps like the Ampeg SVT (300 watts RMS) are still so coveted, and expensive. You could make something along the lines of the Sunns that would be similar, but it would be very expensive and heavy!

greg

Greg,

From what I read, EdBass would like to keep the amp head at 24" wide - as were the early Conrad designs.  The 1000S, 1200S, etc. had 4 KT88/6550's but were all 30" wide amps.  The original Coliseum PA head was 24" wide and had 4 KT88's.

Rob

Yeah I was just saying that the 4 x KT88 thing with a preamp similar to a 200S has already been done...ala the Sunn 2000S. Incidentally, the 2000S had LOTS of room inside the chassis and it could be made less wide with some layout changes and could work just fine on a smaller chassis providing good layout rules were used.

Greg

[Oli]

Greg,

From what I read, EdBass would like to keep the amp head at 24" wide - as were the early Conrad designs.  The 1000S, 1200S, etc. had 4 KT88/6550's but were all 30" wide amps.  The original Coliseum PA head was 24" wide and had 4 KT88's.

Rob
[/quote]

Yeah I was just saying that the 4 x KT88 thing with a preamp similar to a 200S has already been done...ala the Sunn 2000S. Incidentally, the 2000S had LOTS of room inside the chassis and it could be made less wide with some layout changes and could work just fine on a smaller chassis providing good layout rules were used.

Greg
[/quote]

Hi, there was a Sorado a couple of weeks ago on eBay. It got 4 KT88 in it, but it had the size of an ordinary Sorado. The heat of the powertubes might be a problem...? Anyway, the fan in the Ampegs were always a turn off for me. I read the "Gitarre&Bass" (biggest mag in town for guitar&bass equipment) every mounth and it is always a fat minus in the test  when they check an amp with a loud fan...and they are right, there is nothing more awful than a fan noise on the drum mics in a studio. So the Sunn solution is perfect: No extra energy (I like this personally as I'm an degreed engineer for cleantech ) and no extra noise .

...by the way: the DIY SUNN amps seem to get more and more interesting:
 
http://cgi.ebay.de/Dynaco-MKIII-Mk3-Transformer-Bundle-DIY-Tube-Amp-Sunn_W0QQitemZ380192858784QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVintage_Electronics_R2?hash=item588542a2a0

Greetings

Oli

[jerryjg]

I rather doubt it. Id Fender couldnt make a go of it with the Sunn Badge reissues model T's, than what makes you think you could? I mean, sure, you could sell some, most likelty here on this forum and ebay and through word of mouth.
In the end, I don;t think it would get the real deal tone, simply cause the magic is in those old Dynaco hand wound X-formers. Of course, that never stopped Fender from reissueing their old Tweeds and Blakfaces.
Heyboars and Mercury Magnetics come close, ut at the end of the day its all about the old irion, and this is especially true with Sunn.