What kind of speakers would be used in the new amps? Would they be a JBL clone or a similar speaker of similar output? Part of Sunn's sound quality, clarity, and volume can be directly contributed to Conrad's use of JBL speakers. Back in the day the JBL 's were far and above any other speaker in efficiency and sound quality. The efficiency of the speaker made the 40 and 60 watt Sunns sound like they had much more power. According to Fender ads, Eminence manufactures some sort of a D130 clone for their "65 Twin Reverb Custom 15" amp. There is a picture of the amp - front and back - on their website under their Vintage amps. The speaker magnet is ceramic and kind of looks like a JBL "E" series. Check out the web site. Perhaps a similar speaker could be contracted for the Sunn project.
I’ve got some ideas, IMO a 115 would be the obvious choice for an initial speaker offering, and I recently had an opportunity to work on a “no compromise” 115 project using
someone else’s R&D money, so I’ve got a “leg up” so to speak.
I’ve had conversations with some big league speaker builders over the years regarding the D and K series JBL drivers. My all time favorite bass guitar speaker is the K140, but the idea of cloning one is probably unrealistic. The truth of the matter is that if there were truly a market for the old AlNiCo JBL’s, they would probably still be in production, or somebody would have
already cloned them. It’s not like its rocket science or black magic, Eminence or WGS could build a K140 at will.
But… they don’t. If they thought they could make money by developing them, odds are it would already have been done.
But, as I’ve posted repeatedly this is a theoretical discussion, and getting the pulse on the market (starting with Sunn-o-philes) regarding the
amp probably needs to take precedence over speakers.
All in all, I believe that a Sunn clone, true to the original ( as much as possible - or even with some added features ) hand wired, would be a worthwhile project...even if it does turn out to be a limited production amp.
I agree. I am sure that there will be at least
one built.
Well, I am not a Sunn fanatic, enthusiast more likely and a bass player. IMO 60-80 watts is not enough to gig with. And for what it would cost to build one a person could most likely buy a real 200s and have it retubed and re-capped.
With modern sound reinforcement technology, you can play an arena with a 30 watt Ampeg B15N if you want to. There are many bassists that use only Sansamp or similar DI devices in a live setting and
their output is measured in milliwatts.
I’ve retubed and recapped several 200S’s, and it actually costs
less to refurbish a vintage one than it costs to build one from scratch. However, as far as I know the 200S has been out of production for close to 40 years, so there are no new ones available and product support is nonexistent.
Fender got it right when they produced the 300t. It is an excellent example of a modern all-tube bass amplifier. I really don't think bassists give a hoot if an amp is point to point wired or circuit board. It's performance that matters.
Well, I’m a bassist and I care! I think hand wired amps are much more user friendly when it comes to repairs and maintenance, and while I don’t have a real problem with PCB’s, the ones in production amps are generally flimsy compared to a robust eyelet/turret board/point to point hand wired amp.
Actually there are a lot of people who are less interested in a “disposable” PCB amp than in an old school “boat anchor”, but
considerably more people who will buy a cheap price point over buying quality.
The well respected Orange AD200 (which I personally think
sounds great) actually mounts
tube sockets and input/output jacks to PCB’s. Sure, it’s quicker and cheaper to produce, but how many load in and load outs will that type of construction survive? 5 years, 10 years? Who knows, conceivably forever; but I wouldn’t feel overly confident
touring one without factory “hand holding” and a backup real close by.
So… like I’ve insinuated earlier, the issues with the idea that this thread is based on largely are much more perception and marketing based than actually product performance based.
Thanks for your input, and I know that a lot of people are in the same “camp” as you are and it’s one of the biggest challenges to this “concept”
I have a 200S and wouldn't consider using it at even the smallest gig. I love the 300t through it's 215, but that head is just so darn heavy it's a pain to transport. The 215 is big but not terribly heavy and easy to tip into the back of the van.
What would appear to me as a bassist would be at least a 200 watt head that weighs less than 50 pounds and has the Sunn tone and vibe.
I gig with a 200S rig regularly in an R&B band without PA support in a 150 person venue. Sounds great IMO, and I’m pretty critical about my sound. Of course, as Rob mentions, the D140 loaded 200S cab has a
lot to do with that.
That’s a tough spec to fill. IMO the only way that would be possible would be using a switching power supply instead of a power transformer. A lot of purists seem to feel that the PT has influence over the tone of an amp, I’m not one of them.
But… as I keep harping on, IMO the true challenge is defining the market rather than designing an amp.
What you suggested is basically the 2000S, which was around 120-150 watts RMS. Thats enough power to keep up with a 40 watt tube amp that a guitarist is playing, but to keep up with more than that and still be clean, you need bigger power, or mic through the PA, which changes the sound and feel on stage, which affects the player. There is a reason amps like the Ampeg SVT (300 watts RMS) are still so coveted, and expensive. You could make something along the lines of the Sunns that would be similar, but it would be very expensive and heavy!
greg
Greg,
From what I read, EdBass would like to keep the amp head at 24" wide - as were the early Conrad designs. The 1000S, 1200S, etc. had 4 KT88/6550's but were all 30" wide amps. The original Coliseum PA head was 24" wide and had 4 KT88's.
Rob
Yeah I was just saying that the 4 x KT88 thing with a preamp similar to a 200S has already been done...ala the Sunn 2000S. Incidentally, the 2000S had LOTS of room inside the chassis and it could be made less wide with some layout changes and could work just fine on a smaller chassis providing good layout rules were used.
Greg
While I agree that a 4 X KT88 amp would have a much broader appeal overall, there are specific reasons why I based this exercise on a 2 X KT88 configuration.
Most influential is Ashdown and Ampeg’s decision to produce high dollar, low wattage bass amps. I’m small potatoes, but those boys are
big league, and if their high dollar market research determined that the market was there, who am I to argue?
This isn’t to say it’s a lead pipe cinch, but it certainly adds some credence to the idea!
Also, the availability of crucial components at a reasonable price point with virtually no R&D; i.e. the Triode iron and shared technology with the ever popular Dynaco amps factors in strongly.
Whatever it may end up being (provided of course it should end up “being” at all…), I think the 24” wide chassis is a given from a practicality standpoint.
...by the way: the DIY SUNN amps seem to get more and more interesting:
http://cgi.ebay.de/Dynaco-MKIII-Mk3-Transformer-Bundle-DIY-Tube-Amp-Sunn_W0QQitemZ380192858784QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVintage_Electronics_R2?hash=item588542a2a0
See above. And like the 24” spec…. NO FREEKIN’ FANS!
I rather doubt it. Id Fender couldnt make a go of it with the Sunn Badge reissues model T's, than what makes you think you could? I mean, sure, you could sell some, most likelty here on this forum and ebay and through word of mouth.
It’s all relative; within a 12 mo. window, if you were to drop $50K on NAMM, and another $250K or so on internet and print, I believe you could sell just about
anything to
anybody.
FMIC has done an absolutely phenomenal job with the majority of their products in the last 20 years IMO, but re-issuing Sunn wasn’t one of them. I have no inside knowledge, but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the Sunn badge gets reborn, probably on a low level line of SS bass amps. Just a guess, we’ll see what happens…
In the end, I don;t think it would get the real deal tone, simply cause the magic is in those old Dynaco hand wound X-formers. Of course, that never stopped Fender from reissueing their old Tweeds and Blakfaces.
Heyboars and Mercury Magnetics come close, ut at the end of the day its all about the old irion, and this is especially true with Sunn.
It can and has been argued to death in many expert discussions, and I’m a believer in “mojo” also, but I’ve been to enough rodeos in the last 40 years to realize that metal is metal. I really can’t tell the difference between a Triode PT and a Dynaco in my 200S’s with my ears.
Heyboer can pretty much knock off
anything, and I have far less experience with Mercury but I’m sure they are the same. It’s pretty much about how much you want to spend on R&D.
Now, I
can’t say the same for vacuum tubes…
The Orange purists reject the AD200 MK3 for having a totally different sound than the earlier models, but it sells pretty well for an expensive amp. I use a new one and think it sounds great. In fact, I have no clue what a "real" Orange bass head should sound like and really don't care.
Well, my previous comments on the Orange certainly don’t mean that it isn’t a real nice amp. Sound wise I personally think it holds its own with a vintage Orange, and would buy one for my personal use without hesitation if a “deal” popped up. My comments about the construction are accurate though, and do reflect opinions I’ve heard from “boutique” aficionados.
However one of the main contributing factors to the “expensive” part is the fact that it’s imported from the UK (largely exchange rate, they need to maintain a
stable US price point whether the Pound is at $2.95 or $1.90). A great example is the Hiwatt amps, a UK CP103 has a MSRP of $4949 and a street price of around $3400, while a US built Reeves CP103 is $2000. I’m not at liberty elaborate on how “identical” the amps are, but suffice to say the biggest difference in price is where they are built, and the fact that Reeves is factory direct.
In the case of Sunns, there certainly are many more recordings and live sound you could compare a reissue to. But, my own experience with Sunns was that the bass (and strings) I used, the cab and even the venue were equally as important in producing the tone on a given night. For what that's worth.
I agree 100%; there are many factors that go into a rigs sound beyond the amp itself. Many moons ago a very sage FOH engineer stopped me during one of my long winded dissertations about sound reinforcement (yeah, I’ve
always rambled on, this isn’t just a
recent habit of mine
) and corrected my use of the term “enclosure” when referring to a PA cab at a large venue I was working as a roadie. He said “look around kid, everything between the driver and an infinite baffle is the
enclosure, not just that box you’re pointing to. Now get back to doing what you’re being paid to do”.
I got all tweaked off at him, but I never forgot the
lesson.
Thanks again for all the input, everyone. Again, I can’t say what this will come to if anything, but it’s a great exercise regardless!
