What do YOU think???

[Soundmasterg]

Hey Ed,

I know I've seen the info about switching power supplies in the KOC books but haven't found it yet in TUT1, TUT2, TUT3, or Principles of Power. The TUT4,TUT5, and TUT6 deal with power scaling so it could very well be in them, but those are bigger to read through so it may be a bit still.

What I remember from reading it years ago was that there are reasons for not doing it in tube amps.....but I glossed over it at the time so I don't remember why.

greg

It just occurred to me that Kevin O'Connor is London Power, right? I'll ask the Reeves guys, they license their power scaling from them (him?), and could probably shed some light on the issue for me. Interestingly enough, a few years ago while grunting away schlepping a C225 into the Reeves shop, I told their head tech that he should build the big amps with switching power supplies. He said it that off the top of his head he thought could be done, but the purists would claim that it affected the tone, and probably balk at the lack of conventional  power transformers.

Yeah Kevin O' Connor is London Power, so ask the Reeves guys...they should know. I believe the main thing was noise from the switching but maybe you could get it to work. I haven't had a chance to check the TUT4, TUT5, or TUT6 yet for it, but am going to have to read through TUT6 soon for some power scaling info. I'm thinking about adding it to my modified Vox AC100 clone. Currently I have master volumes for the Vox style clean channel and my high gain channel, but it is kind of useless on the clean channel as it is clean all the way up. It would be better to ditch the master for the clean channel and add a power scaling knob on the front, if the circuitry will fit in the amp anyway...its pretty packed!

Of course, that didn't stop Peavey. Their Pro VB-3 300 eight EL34, four 12AX7 and one 12AT7 bass amp uses a switching PS.
300 tube watts; 37 freekin' lbs, amazing. Those Peavey guys have got it goin' on, and have been doing a phenomenal job for decades IMO.

I've been hearing from people in the know that Peavey might be buying parts of Gibson....would certainly be interesting, and they would probably make better guitars and be a better place to work!

Greg

[Oli]

Hi,

some facts from ebay.de:

Sunn 2000S: 916,00€, well far away from the 2000$ mark...

Greetings

Oli

[EdBass]

This is from the "Sunn 215 cabinet" thread in DIY, moved to stop an unintentional "hijack". 

Which means what in Finnish??

Aurinko = Sun

Aurinnko = Sunn


 

Yes, Very clever indeed.  Perhaps a new amp could be marketed with that name.  What do say about that, EdBass??

I actually had a different but not altogether dissimilar idea.  That project got a little side tracked due to some real estate issues, but I'm pretty close to picking up the torch again.

EdBass,

Im glad to hear that you're going foreward with the amp ideas.  After looking around at a number of higher priced beauteque amps, and seeing what the going prices are for such amps,  I'm sure that a nice <Sunn> 200S or such would sell.

How about going just the opposit and naming it Moon.  Use the same font..with all lower case lettering, and instead of the Sunn ((0))), use a stylized 1/2 cresent moon at the end of the lettering.

Robert

EdBass,

Im glad to hear that you're going foreward with the amp ideas.  After looking around at a number of higher priced beauteque amps, and seeing what the going prices are for such amps,  I'm sure that a nice <Sunn> 200S or such would sell.

How about going just the opposit and naming it Moon.  Use the same font..with all lower case lettering, and instead of the Sunn ((0))), use a stylized 1/2 cresent moon at the end of the lettering.

Robert

Or a series of  1/2 crescent moons (two ahead and 3 behind the "moonn"  to keep it in tune with the original look.

Michael

"Moon" was my first idea, and I haven't completely ruled it out. I have another idea though, but I should probably protect it before I reveal it.  Nothing is certain (I'm not exactly ready for pre-orders!), but I expect to make a couple somethings at least, if only for personal use.
Honestly, making an amp is easy. The hard part is the time and $$$ involved in legalities, regulations and marketing!

[John Matrix]

I know it's probably pretty early to be thinking about this side of things. But I'm a graphic designer, if you need help with a logo or anything like that let me know. This would be a really fun project.

You can e-mail me at

archradish (at) gmail (dot) com

[gavin]

Hi Ed Bass;

  200s re-issue!!!  If you used EI KT 90s and a ss rectifier, you could get 100 watts w/ similar sound   SS rectification would be less windings on the power tranny ( cheaper)  I fpund the Sunns are louder and cleaner w/ ss recti, but the GZ34 has a deeper-warmer sound and if you want to grind a bit, it is the better choice.  I swap those socketed diodes in & out from time to time for kix. NOS GZ34s are hard to come by. 6AN8as aren't getting more common either.  use a 6SN7 octal to drive KT90s. Old Ampex B15s had a 600 ohm tap off that for studio work.  Now it's a 201 S !!!!
  Does anybody even market a 2 X 15 these days?  The bass world needs that option ALWAYS.
  80 watts and a 200s cab has played any gig I have gotten in the last 15 years...especially since mic-up is common these days...2000s & 2 200s cabs slaughters my normal gig and most stages don't even have room.
God, those hi wattage Switching power supply amps sound terrible.

Man you opened a can of worms here!!!  $1500 is not unreasonable ( 200s was 1000. in'69). Need rock stars to play them on tour!!!!

gavin

[ROCKETBRO2]

Peavey has a 2x15, but that is the only one I can think of.

[jaybird]

Peavey has a 2x15, but that is the only one I can think of.

Fender and Markbass both make 2x15 cabs... the Fender 215 is basically the same cabinet they were marketing as a Sunn 215 about ten years ago.

[D.M.N.]

Man, this thread is GREAT. I would love the prospect of some Sunn clones, especially a 2000s.

Regarding the market for a reproduction 200s: Many people see the 60w or so as too small for most situations now a days. 200-300w bass amps have definitely become the norm, and anything smaller is kind of considered impractical. True, it's nice to have the big amps with tons of headroom, however, I know loads of guitar players that only use combos: 15-40w or there about. There has been a pretty big and ongoing trend I've seen of increasing popularity of combos over the past years, and these 200-300w bass amps are just way overpowered for guys playing with guitar players who use these smaller amps. These monster bass amps are bulky, and to get into the sweet spot tone, kind of have to be cranked, at which point you've completely blown away the guitarist. The only bass amps widely available  for small club gigs or playing with these lower watt combos are either lightweight SS amps, or older, lower watt bass amps (B-15, bassmans, and sunns). Therefore, I believe there would definitely be a market for a new, lower watt, all tube bass amp. Obviously that's what Ashdown's philosophy is with the Lil Bastard 30w amp, although that would probably be more useful as a practice amp. They aren't ridiculously heavy, you can get the tube sound without the high volume, and they are fairly portable. So I think a 200s repro would sell, maybe not tons, but it would have a market.
P.S.-another market, though its probably already been mentioned, is studios.


It's funny, I'm just about to construct a 2000s cab, and I was figuring on either buying old Sunn badges or coming up with a custom badge. At one point during the build planing, I was thinking me and my old man could make a small production of cabs, as I know at least one other bass player who'd be interested in a 2x15, and a guitar playing interested in either a 215 or 4/6x12 cab. Pretty simple designs, wouldn't be that hard to make a small batch of cabs. So I start putting some more thought into the custom name plate idea, as I know a place where I can have them whipped up. First idea that comes to mind: Moon ))), with either a little man on the moon, ala Little Prince, or a crescent moon face, something like this:http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/1461/070320pglogohmed8ahmeditw5.jpg
Great minds think alike I suppose, though I really like the badge Arskas came up: Aurinnko = Sunn
I still may get the Moon badges made up, just to see how they come out, that or I'll make one that says Nelsonn (O))). (Adding an N to my last name).

Anywho, I'd be really into a repro 2000s, I was talking about getting an old 2000s on Talkbass just yesterday/today. But a modern PTP Sunn would definitely get my attention. Personally, I love the 30" width head, and that would be a selling point to me. However, I understand the 24" common width, as overhanging, non-uniformed head+cab combos bug the $*#% out of me. Its the same thing with the Reeves, I think they just look better with the longer width. But I get the practicality of a smaller 2000s.  Either way, loving the prospects of this thread, I'd offer any aid I could, which probably just be testing since I'm not very technically inclined.

[D(o)))(((o)M]

I have 2000$ sitiing aside to buy your 2000s reproduction!!! let me know when its finished!!! hah... I'm really not joking though...

[rot gut]

I have 2000$ sitiing aside to buy your 2000s reproduction!!! let me know when its finished!!! hah... I'm really not joking though...

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/msg/1773410795.html

have at it lol.

[ROCKETBRO2]

So, what is the latest EdBass?

[HRobert]

Hi Ed Bass;

   Does anybody even market a 2 X 15 these days?  The bass world needs that option ALWAYS.
 

Gavin, back in the early 70's a bass player friend of mine had a Sonic I-40...which was a 40 watt version of the 200S but had a single 15" bottom loaded with a JBL D-140.  He then bought a second I-40 cabinet and sold the Sonic head and bought a 200S head.  My point is that perhaps two single 15 cabs might be more flexible than one 2 x 15.  Then again sunn had the big 4 x 15 bass cab.  Just an idea.

Rob

[EdBass]

If you used EI KT 90s and a ss rectifier, you could get 100 watts w/ similar sound   SS rectification would be less windings on the power tranny ( cheaper)  I fpund the Sunns are louder and cleaner w/ ss recti, but the GZ34 has a deeper-warmer sound and if you want to grind a bit, it is the better choice.  I swap those socketed diodes in & out from time to time for kix. NOS GZ34s are hard to come by. 6AN8as aren't getting more common either.  use a 6SN7 octal to drive KT90s. Old Ampex B15s had a 600 ohm tap off that for studio work.  Now it's a 201 S !!!!

KT90 are a little scarce nowdays, probably not the best choice for a production circuit. Ei is gone. EH is the only supplier left ASAIK. I've played with the new Tung Sol KT120, I have a quad in an amp as I type this, and so far they are holding up well. They sound pretty good also, after I get some hours on them I'll know more. I like the reissue Gold Lions, but truthfully can't tell much difference between them and the stock JJ's in my Reeves C225. I think JJ's are real workhorses in the 6550/KT88 class, great sounding, very consistant and reliable. I'm always trying the new phenom tube though, trying to reach that tonal nirvana...
I have a vintage B15N less than 3 ft from me right now. I think it's maybe the best sounding amp I've ever heard, particularly with a passive bass. The huge soundstage on the NOS 6SN7 is so rich and dynamic you can taste it but; I think a lot of the tone is in the total tube configuration, combined with the circuit itself, not to mention the cabinet. Although my B15 sounds pretty spectacular through my K140 loaded Sunn Sonic I-40 cab also.
Jess Oliver certainly got it right, that's for sure!
As I said I think that the B15 is the cream of the tonal crop, but I'm looking for the Sunn tone I love, not a hybrid.
Besides, Alessandro already did it;
http://www.alessandro-products.com/amp-basset.html
Nice amp, but then I suppose it ought to be considering it starts at $2600 and with options can cost well over $50,000 (not a typo).

So, what is the latest EdBass?

Regretfully I don't have much to report; except that the deeper I dig the higher the price seems to go.
To get a saleable amp(s), economy of scale is everything. IMO a 4 x KT88/6550 amp would be more useful for the majority of bass players than a 2 x KT88/6550 would be, but the 200ish watt tube bass amp category is pretty crowded already, both high end hand wired and PCB imports ranging from <$1000 to $3500+.
The 75-100ish watt tube bass amp category is less populated, but mostly because of the perception that you need at least 150 tube watts for a bass amp.
I've played enough gigs with a box stock 200S rig to know that with the right cabinet a 60 watt amp will fill a small to medium venue with strong clean bass without PA support. It's humorous and somewhat entertaining when you see self proclaimed "experts" posting on bass forums about how you need at least 500 or so watts to play live, but that type of perception can contribute in making a low powered bass amp a tough sell.

So... I think I would need a 60 watt and a 150 watt amp to be viable. Actually a rated 100 watts and 200 watts would be more marketable and also easily obtainable without totally bastardizing the Dynaco circuit. IMO the key is to be able to build both amps sharing as many parts as possible (that "economy of scale" thing). Also not a big stretch as the Mark III and the Mark VI are pretty much similar except for the iron and # of tubes. The key would be a universal chassis and head cabinet, 200 chassis/head cabinets are a lot less per piece than 10 of them are.
Anybody want to donate a 60's era Coliseum PA amp as a "mule"?

Of course all of this effort (and initial outlay $$$) would be a waste of time if I didn't think a target price of <$1500; as close to $1000 as possible, for a hand built amp wasn't important.
That's one of the reasons (besides the truckload of vintage Sunn gear I've accumulated  ) I want the vintage Sunn market to jump up to vintage Hiwatt/Marshal/Fender levels. Personally, I think Sunn amps are deserving of the same reverence tonally.
It seems to be slowly changing, but regretfully Sunn has been adopted for use by an entire genre(s) of non musicians as simply loud, inarticulate noise makers, and I believe it's caused the majority of talented and influential players and serious collectors to largely ignore them being the tone machines they are. I believe this because I regularly speak with vintage gear pros from all over at shows and showcases. When I bring up Sunn, some of them acknowledge their tone, but the majority dismiss them as "only good for that xxxxxx, or yyyy garbage."

At $2000 for a 2 tube and $3500 for a 4 tube, on paper "Sunn clone" building could start tomorrow... And end in a couple of months when nobody would actually pony up and buy one for that kind of money. 

[D.M.N.]

SHHHHHHHH! I don't want the prices to jump up! At least, not till I buy a 2000s. But you're right, they absolutely deserve to be ranked with "the best". If you could make a handwired 4xKT88/6550 2000s clone, I bet they would sell like hotcakes, regardless of what circuit they're based on. I'd regard you as a God.

I'm just as puzzled by the assumptions some people makes regarding how much power is necessary. A 300w tube amp is stupid loud, I really cannot imagine anyone wanting more than that, and in fact, even 300w is a bit overkill. People using 2000w power amps? WHAT!? Where would the ever be necessary? Festivals I suppose. But even then, 40 years ago, these lower watt rigs, 100w-200w, were holding their own fine at festivals. Woodstock, limited PA, what were guys using? Sunns and Acoustics, for a lot. Granted, the actual sound levels in the audience may have been iffy, and I'm sure the sound quality at current festivals is way superior, but what has changed to where a 2000w rig, into a PA, is now needed to do the same thing that 40 years ago 100-200w rigs were doing on their own? All I can chalk it up to is less efficient speakers, and less efficient cabinets. I've reduced the power in my Bassman 300 by disabling one pair of tubes, and I'm happier because I can drive it more, and I plan on "downsizing" to a 100-200w amp in the future, just because they can handle my needs just as well. I could probably use a 60w amp in plenty of situations, definitely for practice, small gigs, stuff where I back acoustic guitars, or for the studio (maybe not enough to justify purchasing a dedicated amp for these purposes, but point being that there's plenty of applications).
[/rant]

Anyways, I still think this is a cool idea Ed.




P.S. Oh, and I think I'm going to get a MOON))) name plate made up of me new cab.