JBL's- K VS E

[PBman]

Which one is the closest to a D series?

[MarkG]

The simple answer was The K140 was  closer to the D140  than was the E140.

........But if either had been re-coned,they had probably been re-coned to the E140 specs if done with
a JBL factory kit.  So depends on if all original or had a recent re-cone,and the source of the kit.
 
Here is a previous thread:
http://sunn.ampage.org/sdp/index.php/topic,4257.0.html

And if you search JBL D140 you can find others.

[PBman]

Mark

The reason I ask is that a local guy wants to sell his vintage 215 cab with K's in it for $350. Its the cab with the single port in the center of the cab between the drivers. I've had a 2000s cab with the side ports and we all know about them. How will the center port be, if you know. I know Ed's commented on this before but I can't find the post on it

Thanks

[EdBass]

There were two versions with center ports, the 200S (40"x24"x15") and the larger 2000S (46"x30"x15"). As far as I know there was never a side ported 2000S cab, but the smaller sized 2X15 was side ported as the 215S in (I think) '70 or '71, and continued with side ports as various models into the 80's.
I think the center ported 2X15's sound great with the AlNico drivers, and a K140 loaded 200S cab would be a particularly nice cab as long as you aren't planning to crank a 500 watt amp through it. However the smaller 200S cab has a couple of "practical" handicaps compared to a 215S IMO.
Because of the port ducting the type of driver that will fit is restricted. The shallow, small magneted D and K series will fit, but I don't think you can get an E series in. I think the newer neodymium magnet drivers will fit though.
Also, the rear loading 200S cab is a massive PITA to swap speakers in, even with an electric screwdriver. I also had one once that required tedious cross torquing to keep the old plywood back from leaking air and making an extremely annoying "fart" at certain frequencies.
That notwithstanding; if it's nice, I'd pay $350 for a K140 loaded 200S cab without thinking twice.

[PBman]

It's the one on the left

[PBman]

The only issue I have is the drivers are 8 ohm. A 4 ohm load means that I ca't run with 4/10, wahhh

[EdBass]

It's the one on the left

I'd say that's a 2000S cab on the left and the smaller 215S cab on the right. You won't have the port ducting restrictions with the 2000S as you would have with the 200S cab.
Also, I know where you can get some very nice factory 16 ohm K140's on the west coast, but they aren't cheap. You could possibly sell the 8's and for a slight differential get a set of 16's.

[MarkG]

EdBass,
I think it's an optical illusion,due to the offset speakers. Both those cabs look the same 24" wide size to me.

Looks like a model 200S style cab on the left. A later 215-S style  on the right.

PBman...just curious,what are you planning on driving it with? Regarding impedance,depending on the age,if that is an older 200S with 2  8ohm drivers,they may very well be wired in series to 16 ohms. If not,you can rewire it that way,although not sure how that will help. You may be able to get the Ks reconed  to 4 ohm,and wire in series,for an 8 ohm cab.  

At any rate,,the price seems right.  Maybe You could  part out the 8 ohm Ks,recover some cost, then  install whatever you want.   I hear some of the Eminence Kappas worked pretty well in these and have higher power capacities.
  

[PBman]

Mark

I have a 2000s set up for 8 & 4 ohm on the outputs. I changed the taps a few years back when I installed new filter caps. I also have a Traynor YBA-3A Custom Super that has a 2/4 ohm switch. I could easily run the K cab at 4 ohmn and still be happy. Do you know how the 2000s does at 2 ohm or don't do it, which would be fine if I couldn't use it at 2 ohm
Thanks

[MarkG]

PBman

As is,,, DO NOT run the 2000S at 2 ohms.

 If the transformer has a 2 ohm tap you could get it modified I guess. I do not know if that is advisable or possible on a 2000S.

  Why do you want to run a 4x10 with a setup like this?   Seems counter productive if looking for a vintage Sunn 2000S / D140 sound.   For flexibility,run your 4X10 on the Traynor,the 200S/K140 on the 2000S.Make sure the 200S cab is actually running at 4ohm and not 16ohm,and plug directly into the 4 ohm extension jack,so you are tapped correctly.


 

[EdBass]

EdBass,
I think it's an optical illusion,due to the offset speakers. Both those cabs look the same 24" wide size to me.

Looks like a model 200S style cab on the left. A later 215-S style  on the right.

I agree it's a deceptive angle but I'm pretty sure that's a 2000S cab on the left, not a 200S. I think maybe the 215S is closer to the camera than it appears to be. It just plain looks big, like a 2000S without a grill to me, and I've seen a couple.
And, since I absolutely hate to be wrong , I used a ruler on my monitor, and sure enough the cab on the left appears to be almost exactly twice the width of the 15" driver, while the drivers in the one on the right are approx. 62% of the width of the cab..
 
Only one way to tell; Rich, I notice that the pic is dated 4 mos. ago, but if you still have it, how wide is the cab on the left, 30" or 24"?


Also, 2000S amps didn't have 2 ohm taps from the factory. You can wire them for 16 & 8 or 8 & 4.

Here's an interesting fact, though; One of my 2000S rigs (head and two 4 ohm cabinets) was bought from a musician that toured it for several years. The whole time he ran it at 2 ohms on the 4 ohm tap, and it's still as strong as a horse, original OT. The only replaced parts over the years were filter caps, tubes, and misc. coupling caps and resistors.
I won't run it like that, and I'm not saying you should either; but... the original owner of that particular rig did, and it's none the worse for wear.
I know tube amp gurus who say that a impedance mismatch really isn't a big deal, and Leo Fender's amps used to default to a dead short as a protection device on his amps; that's a +/- 0 impedance load on a 4 or 8 ohm tap.
I'll stick with matched impedance for my gear, though. Maybe a mismatch won't destroy a tube amp as I was raised to believe, but it it will no doubt perform better at the proper load. 

[MarkG]

EdBass,

You may be right,,I notice now the one on left may be set back some from the right,and at an angle.  Either way,If a 2000S  or 200S with K140s  sounds like great deal at that price ! I would not hesitate.
He can always figure out later how to make it usable.    

Re the 2 ohm impedance...not surprised it survived running at 2ohm. Seems a lot of this stuff from back then was pretty durable. WAAAYYY back in the day when I was MUCH younger,don't even remember paying attention to impedance matching.   When I used to run Fender Bassman or Showman heads,(mostly borrowed,) used to hang as many cabs as could get our hands on,with zero regard for any of it.  Everything always survived.

BUT....would not suggest anyone do this.

The only thing we ever blew up was a small 5 watt tube combo amp that our guitar player disconnected the internal speaker,rigged the output with a  long cable and 1/4 inch jack so he could use it as a preamp plugged to the input of his Fender Bandmaster.   It screamed !   For about half the night until the transformer on the combo amp smoked.....   Was fun though !  

BUT....... Certainly would not suggest anyone do this !

[PBman]

Nice input guys, but I've asked the seller more the measurements so I can report back. One question on th impedence issue. The amp was a 16/8 when I first got it. I changed it to a 8/4. So if i understand right, if i plug an 8 ohm cab in the 8 jack the amp sees 8. Then if I plug another 8 cab into the 4 jack the amp sees a total of 4? What happens if I get the 4 ohm cab, do I plug that only into the 4, and nothing else can be used?

[EdBass]

Nice input guys, but I've asked the seller more the measurements so I can report back. One question on th impedence issue. The amp was a 16/8 when I first got it. I changed it to a 8/4. So if i understand right, if i plug an 8 ohm cab in the 8 jack the amp sees 8. Then if I plug another 8 cab into the 4 jack the amp sees a total of 4? What happens if I get the 4 ohm cab, do I plug that only into the 4, and nothing else can be used?

I can't wait to get the actual measurements, I had a hard time sleeping last night...

This has been covered many times in many posts on this forum, but...
The output jacks are wired to two taps on your OT. In the case of yours being wired to the 8 and 4 ohm taps, if a single cab is plugged into either one by itself, the tap wired to that individual jack will see the load. You can plug a 4 ohm load into the 4 ohm jack OR an 8 ohm load into the 8 ohm jack, and yes, you would plug a single 4 ohm cab into the 4 ohm jack and nothing else could be used.
If you plug into both jacks, they will default to the lower impedance (in your example 4 ohm) tap in parallel.
So... regardless of the impedance(s) of your loads, if you use both jacks the 8 ohm will disconnect and only the 4 ohm tap will be connected; If you plug in two 8 ohm cabs, one into each jack, they will show a paralleled 4 ohm load to the 4 ohm tap.
If you plug an 8 and a 4 ohm cab, one into each jack you will be showing a 2.67 ohm load to the 4 ohm tap, which may or may not be an issue to your amp's health as per the posts above.
Here's what undoubtedly would be an issue in the "mismatch" scenario; two thirds of your amp's power would be going to the 4 ohm cabinet. In the case of a 2000S, about 100 watts to one and 50 watts to the other, which IMO is not the most effective use of a pair of 215 cabs.