Author Topic: Always SUNNy in...  (Read 9213 times)

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Offline PB Blaster

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Always SUNNy in...
« on: September 19, 2012, 10:49:25 pm »
Thought I'd pop my head up since I just joined up, sent here by a link on EdBass reply to my post on the TB forum. This is where I should have come in the 1st place. No offense to the guys there, but after a couple days I could tell that it wasn't where I wanted to be. Here's a link to that post.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/hello-help-%3B-sunn-sorado-questions-tubes-speakers-etc-917816/

Anyway, I'm feeling SUNN burned... maybe it's a mild case of SUNN stroke? I think I definitely feel a case of SUNN fever coming on (God, please don't let me get obsessed with this stuff! ;-{). Like a lot of other guys, I've been chasing "that sound" or this and that piece of gear for what seems like decades. I'm more of a guitar player, but I still take my bass gear very seriously. And now I've got a SUNN, and life is looking up. Luckily I don't have the room for any more...

I mean I barely have room for any more large bass amps... until I sell a few things to make more room ;-)

And on a lighter note, I had to appreciate this guy's sense of humor for choice of pic in this feeBay ad!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Sunn-2x15-Cabinet-/320983690630?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc1e6d86

« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 02:03:48 pm by PB Blaster »

Offline EdBass

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Re: Always SUNNy in...
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2012, 06:18:42 am »
I moved your post to the Sunn section from the Other Musical Equipment section.
I visit talkbass some, but I can only take "poseur land" in small doses...
There are a bunch of good folks there, but far too many “internet experts”; some of them post their “expert opinion” 6 or 7 times a day, every day.

IMO if you have that much time to post on a forum, the only thing you have time to be an “expert” on is posting on forums. ; )

Offline PB Blaster

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Re: Always SUNNy in...
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2012, 08:39:59 am »
Hi Ed, and nice to meet you. Yeah, opinions... and "expert opinions" to boot ;-)  Well hell it's another beautiful day in the great NW, the sun's hitting the house already at 7:30p. May I'll have a little time to dink with the SUNN today, I wanna do some speaker testing.

I got a "real nice pair"... of D140's on the way off fleaBay! Guy's been real nice to converse with, something you don't get often on that site.

Question;

If this is a ported cab, then was it the original Sorado cab?

I know I'm gonna be in love with this amp, when I get a few kinks ironed out. I can hear Phil Collins in the background... "I've been waiting for this amp, all my life" ;-)

Offline EdBass

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Re: Always SUNNy in...
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2012, 09:59:31 am »
All of the Sunn 215 bass cabs were ported. The 200S and the larger 2000S had a full width center port with elaborate internal ducting;





While the economy Sorado cab had two circular ports between the drivers;



The 200S and 2000S came OEM only with JBL D140F's, or occasionally as I mentioned in the TB post they were ordered with various other speakers; most usually with Altecs. The Sorado came with "Sunn Transducer" drivers only.

After about 1972, both the 200S cab and the Sorado cab were replaced by the 215S/M/or V model which could be loaded with Sunn Transducers, Sunn Magna, or Cerwin Vega drivers. This one I loaded with EVM15L's, and it's sitting under a Reeves instead of a Sunn amp, but it's the only 215S picture I have handy;



Now; put all that Sunn enthusiasm to work and wear out the search function on this site. If you stumble across any broken links to old threads/posts, PM me and I'll get them fixed!


Offline PB Blaster

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Re: Always SUNNy in...
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2012, 11:15:37 am »
Cool man, will do ;-)

My cab is definitely the original Sorado cab then, just like that one you got open. Insulation maybe a little different and the wiring is stapled to the left side. Not sure how this one came by the Altecs, but It'll have the D140F's in it before too long. Got construction stuff going on (like usual this time of year, mad scramble before winter...), so I got very limited time to play with it, but I still make a little time.

Have you hugged you SUNN today?

Offline Isaac

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Re: Always SUNNy in...
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2012, 11:22:38 am »
PB Blaster, in your TalkBass thread, you asked, "Whoa... who runs a head on 0 for bass and treble? Never heard of that."

I do. That's my starting point, anyway. On most amps, the tone controls are boost only, so with any boost at all, you start to get scooped mids. That often sounds good when playing by yourself, but the mids are important when playing in a band. So, what I do is start with bass and treble on 0, and set my volume. Then I add a little bass or treble if I feel I need to. Using a Sentura II head (a Sunn guitar head) for bass, at one rehearsal I had the bass up around 2 for the small cabinet with a D130 driver, but put it back to 0 at another rehearsal, where I used a 200S cabinet. The 200S cabinet has enough low end for almost any purpose!
Isaac

Offline PB Blaster

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Re: Always SUNNy in...
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2012, 08:46:07 pm »
Well, live and learn (Smiley face) I can't see smiley's on here so I thought I'd write it out.

Different strokes for different folks?

I saw where you posted on an old thread (which I almost resurrected, but I didn't want to look stupid...) that - if I understand you correctly -  you didn't believe in any mismatch of amp vs cabinet impedance was of any consequence? Another gem I gleaned from that thread was that the 8Ω out head into a 6Ω cab was better than using the 4Ω out into a 6Ω load, even though my whole life I've had it drummed into my head over and over that you NEVER under any circumstance (ok, maybe if your life depended on it...) go from big to small on a mismatch, ALWAYS the other way around.

But then again, maybe I still got it wrong, or read the thread wrong, who knows.

It happens (smiley face)

Offline bigobassman

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Re: Always SUNNy in...
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2012, 10:14:16 pm »
Here's you a welcome from North Carolina.  Sounds like you're having a lot fun with your gear.  That's a great thing to do.  I enjoy the gear research, rehabbing, experimenting etc.  BTW-should you use the JBLs and want to get rid of the Altec 421A, I have a use for it (actually for 2, but one's a start.)  Anyway, continue to enjoy the never ending quest.   
"You can't have too much bass."

Offline EdBass

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Re: Always SUNNy in...
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2012, 10:29:54 pm »
Well, live and learn (Smiley face) I can't see smiley's on here so I thought I'd write it out.

Different strokes for different folks?

I saw where you posted on an old thread (which I almost resurrected, but I didn't want to look stupid...) that - if I understand you correctly -  you didn't believe in any mismatch of amp vs cabinet impedance was of any consequence? Another gem I gleaned from that thread was that the 8Ω out head into a 6Ω cab was better than using the 4Ω out into a 6Ω load, even though my whole life I've had it drummed into my head over and over that you NEVER under any circumstance (ok, maybe if your life depended on it...) go from big to small on a mismatch, ALWAYS the other way around.

But then again, maybe I still got it wrong, or read the thread wrong, who knows.

It happens (smiley face)

There are different ideas about the importance of impedance matching to the physical well-being of a transformer coupled tube amp. Most agree that most tube amps are pretty tolerant of a miss match either way, but the closer you can get to actually matching the output stage to the load the better the amp will perform relative to accurately amplifying the signal it's being fed. Most also agree that no load, which is actually almost ∞ ohms, is indeed hazardous to a tube amp and can cause catastrophic failure. 

I'm personally of the opinion that if you are going to mismatch it's safer to mismatch down; e.g. "8Ω out head into a 6Ω cab" than the other way around. I base this on what other engineers have done with their circuit designs, most notably what Leo Fender and others did by designing their output jacks to default to a dead short (+/- zero ohms) rather than staying open (+/- ∞ ohms) as protection against accidently running the amp without a load plugged in

Offline Isaac

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Re: Always SUNNy in...
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2012, 11:30:18 pm »
Well, live and learn (Smiley face) I can't see smiley's on here so I thought I'd write it out.

Different strokes for different folks?

I saw where you posted on an old thread (which I almost resurrected, but I didn't want to look stupid...) that - if I understand you correctly -  you didn't believe in any mismatch of amp vs cabinet impedance was of any consequence? Another gem I gleaned from that thread was that the 8Ω out head into a 6Ω cab was better than using the 4Ω out into a 6Ω load, even though my whole life I've had it drummed into my head over and over that you NEVER under any circumstance (ok, maybe if your life depended on it...) go from big to small on a mismatch, ALWAYS the other way around.

But then again, maybe I still got it wrong, or read the thread wrong, who knows.

It happens (smiley face)
Well, not exactly. I don't think that small impedance mismatches are particularly serious. I have accidentally run 100% mismatches in both directions with no ill effects, and have read that most tube amps are tolerant of mismatches of up to 100%. So no, I don't worry about them overmuch. I have also run an amp with no load while working on it, and have never had a problem. I don't know for sure that the amp was running open, but I don't recall there being a switching jack on the output. Overall, I used to get seriously worked up over lots of things, even small shit. I try not to do that anymore.

The other thing I said in that thread was that, mathematically, 5.3 ohms is closer to 4 ohms than it is to 8 ohms, and that 4 ohms is therefore a closer match to 5.3 ohms than 8 ohms is. I didn't claim that one or the other was better.
Isaac

Offline PB Blaster

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Re: Always SUNNy in...
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2012, 08:37:15 am »
Well it's nice to know that you shouldn't be so paranoid about it. And proof being in the pudding, this Sorado head I just got looks like it was run for who knows how many years from the 8Ω tap into a 4Ω cab, actually measures something like 3.6Ω. Although I tried both outs, and [I thought] it was louder out of the 4Ω out, so the head has to work harder to achieve the same volume level, hence heating up?

Here's you a welcome from North Carolina.  Sounds like you're having a lot fun with your gear.  That's a great thing to do.  I enjoy the gear research, rehabbing, experimenting etc.  BTW-should you use the JBLs and want to get rid of the Altec 421A, I have a use for it (actually for 2, but one's a start.)  Anyway, continue to enjoy the never ending quest.   

Hey Bigo,

Thx, and I plan to have a lot more fun, as in actually playing this thing when I get a little more time. Mother in law showing up this weekend from the Bay Area, so there won't be much fooling around with bass gear unless I can sneak off a little here and there. Today is clean-up day and I'm gonna be in the doghouse if I don't get it done... I still ned to test the Altecs to see what's going on. I've got the cab open, and noticed the speakers screws weren't that tight. So tightened them, but I don't think that was the problem.

The top one is a 421A, and the bottom a cast frame 421-8H. I may keep the bottom one, will probably sell the 421A. Cool looking speaker, btw. Or get rid of both of them, and since my JBL's are getting here in a box, I'll already have a shipping box for them.

Offline EdBass

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Re: Always SUNNy in...
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2012, 09:53:37 am »
Well it's nice to know that you shouldn't be so paranoid about it. And proof being in the pudding, this Sorado head I just got looks like it was run for who knows how many years from the 8Ω tap into a 4Ω cab, actually measures something like 3.6Ω. Although I tried both outs, and [I thought] it was louder out of the 4Ω out, so the head has to work harder to achieve the same volume level, hence heating up?

Another testament to the durability of tube amps in general and Sunn amps specifically; I have an ex pro touring 2000S rig that was gigged hard and put up wet for a decade or so, and the whole time it was driving two 4 ohm cabs for a combined nominal impedance of 2 ohms using the 4 ohm tap.
When I got the rig the amp tested at factory spec., no harm done.

What you are actually measuring is the voice coil's DC resistance, not AC speaker impedance. Both measured in ohms, but two different values.
Impedance is referred to as "nominal" when dealing with speakers, because it's sort of an average impedance to current flow, if you look at a driver's response curve there is also generally an impedance curve with it as well. If you look at one of those impedance curves, you will notice that an 8 ohm driver is only actually at 8 ohms impedance for a small window of time/frequency.
Try the Eminence website's speaker spec. sheets to see what I mean.

It's not really so much a case of the amp "working harder", it's more of an efficiency issue. A tube amp running at matched impedance is "balanced", and performs as it was designed to.
However, given the fluctuating nature of speaker impedance there needs to be a rather large degree of load flexibility designed into the circuit and/or with the chosen components in order for it to function in practical application, so a 100% nominal impedance mismatch isn't really pushing the boundaries as much as it might seem by looking at the speaker's advertised nominal impedance.

Of course, little of this is really relevent with non transformer coupled transistor amps, in which the only clear and present danger is running too low of a load impedance. If the impedance gets too low for the transistors to dissipate the energy effectively, it will melt down like Chernobyl.
There was a hip phrase going around here a while back about people "running at 2", which was a reference to running 2 ohm loads on their transistor amps for maximum output.
That phrase was used like some badge of honor.
I'm not sure where it came from, but IMO it's more like a "badge of ignorance". The speaker response graphs I referenced earlier will attest to the fluctuating nature of impedance curves, and 2 ohms is WAY too close to a dead short (kind of like a cyanide capsule for transistor output stages) to be messing with, even if the amp is 2 ohm stable.
But, as usual I digress...

Again, the search feature is your friend; these subjects have been covered here ad nauseum over the years...

Offline bigobassman

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Re: Always SUNNy in...
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2012, 09:38:47 pm »
OK - cool.  FYI on the Altecs, JBLs or any aluminum framed speaker.  Don't overtighten the mounting screws.  Mount them snugly and evenly - criss cross the pattern.  Too tightly and over time, you risk warping the frame since the aluminum will give some under pressure.  With the bending or warping of the frame, eventally damage to the voice coil etc. will occur since it's operating in a bind.  BTW - this info came straight from Harvey Gerst- the guy that designed the JBL D140F and other JBLs.  I spoke with him a couple of years back.  He said to just hand tighten them, but I think they need a little more than that.

My weekend project is an all original '72 Kustom (in charcoal sparkle tuck n' roll) X1-18B cab.  This is the folded horn cab with one 18 " speaker.  I got it from the original owner.  It just needs a little TLC, but it is a monster.  Weighs like 137 pounds.  Fairly rare though.

Now - get back to the cleaning, or whatever she tells you to do.  Life is much better then.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 09:59:31 pm by bigobassman »
"You can't have too much bass."

Offline PB Blaster

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Re: Always SUNNy in...
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2012, 10:39:45 pm »
Yeah, I hear that ;-{) I got er done, cleaned the place up so damn good I don't even recognize it... I wish she would visit twice a year, then it would only be half the clean-up each time.

Anyhoo, won't be doing any SUNNing tomorrow, or maybe a couple minutes late in the evening, not the best time to test speakers.

Yeah, I probably tend to oversnug speakers, maybe. Never had a bit of trouble with any Celestions (steel frame), ever. I'll have to watch these guys though. I didn't realize that the D140's were aluminum framed speakers, or the 421A. Because they don't have that chunky cast frame aluminum look.