Sunn 200s versus Ampeg B-15R - Soundclip comparison

[funkytoe]

A few months ago, I did a quick comparison between my Sunn 200s rig and my Ampeg B-15r.   Although these are poorly recorded (done with my Iphone speaker) I do think they show the difference between the two rigs pretty well.   Viva the Sunn!

First the Sunn 200s

http://soundcloud.com/funkytoe/sunn200s

Then the B15R

http://soundcloud.com/funkytoe/ampegb15r

[Isaac]

Both sound fine to me. Differences are subtle, but that could be my headphones.

What bass are you using?

[funkytoe]

Fender P Bass with broken in round wounds.  Did not change any settings on the bass between the two takes.  Both amps were set flat.

To me, the 200s sounds a little more alive.   The Ampeg has this gorgeous compression that sounds great on tape.   But playing both side by side, i liked the unrestrained sound of the 200s a little better.   Just my opinion of course.

[EdBass]

I haven't had an opportunity to listen yet, but isn't the B15R the 100 watt reissue? Also, I assume it's the whole Portaflex rig but is the 200S going through a 200S/JBL cab, and if not what is it running through?

[loudthud]

What do you consider "flat" settings on the 200S?

[funkytoe]

I haven't had an opportunity to listen yet, but isn't the B15R the 100 watt reissue? Also, I assume it's the whole Portaflex rig but is the 200S going through a 200S/JBL cab, and if not what is it running through?

Yes, the B-15R is the 100 watt reissue.   the Sunn 200s is running through a single 1x15 cab loaded with a JBL D140.   Not an exact copy, but similar to an I-40 cab.

[funkytoe]

What do you consider "flat" settings on the 200S?

Great question!   No boost.   Both treble and bass at "5".   Likely not "flat" in reality, but squarely in the middle of the range for both pots.

[Isaac]

No, not flat. Like most amps, 200S tone controls are boost only. The flattest setting is usually with the tone controls all the way down at zero.

[EdBass]

Nice! I agree with Isaac that both sound fine and the differences are pretty subtle, but it sounds to me like the Sunn has a wider response curve, more low-low and certainly more high mid-high. Sounds a little scooped by comparison to the Ampeg. The B15R certainly has that classic B15 warm middy thing going on. I have a 70's B15N but I've never had the opportunity to play the reissue. I like the switchable 50/100 watts part, like the modern features and the switchable OT taps (the vintage B15 is 8; period) not wild about the 110+ lbs, and am completely baffled as to why Ampeg decided to include a piezo tweeter in a freekin' Portaflex of all things.
I didn't hear the hiss in your recording; maybe you had the piezo turned off?

Anyway, it's no secret I'm a "little" Sunn biased, and straight up and side by side I prefer the bigger dynamic and more "musical" character of a Sunn/JBL rig over the vintage Portaflex.
But... That said, in a recorded mix I think the vintage B15 is absolute King, and from your limited solo clips it seems to me that the B15R carrys on in that tradition.
They can sound a little boring, even a little midrange "honky" solo, but when you add the rest of the band they just sit right where they need to be, and sound phenomenal.

All IMO of course!

No, not flat. Like most amps, 200S tone controls are boost only. The flattest setting is usually with the tone controls all the way down at zero.

Years ago I used a RTA in a fairly dead studio iso room on a bunch of rigs and tube amps to see what "flat" was relative to control settings, but I can't find the results. I know I have them somewhere...

Anyway, going from memory all of the amps were "whacked"; the tone controls were all over the place in my attempts to flatline the RTA, and none of them actually got real flat. I was using appropriate speaker cabs, which of course presented another obstacle to the search for "flat". I didn't have the appropriate equipment to test just the amps themselves at power. Another observation (which I expected) was that at different volume levels the rigs changed character and needed to be adjusted as the volume increased to stay "flat".
I post back if I can find my notes and charts, but from memory at 100dB pink noise the 200S rig needed both boost switches on , the bass control at zero and the treble jacked pretty good to get the closest approximation of "flat".
As I said, "whacked".
On a side note, I am also sure that the differences between individual amps, even of identical vintage, make and model can be pretty significant also. So take my observations with a grain of salt; your results may vary...

Here's something I remember for sure though; ALL of the rigs sounded like ass "flat" when I played through them. Lifeless and truthfully pretty annoying, disgustingly mid heavy and IMO useless for any live or recording application.
My overall suggestion would be to "season to taste" with your gear and not worry about "flat", or for that matter what anyone else thinks of your tone.

I'd love to hear your B15/200S comparo with both amps adjusted to what you think sounds best rather than trying to get a level playing field, funky!

[Isaac]

My experience with my own 200S is that it sounds pretty good flat, but that could be my basses, my style of playing, my bias.

Electronically, the 200S ought to be flat with the tone controls at zero and the boost switches on. Why on? Because the boost switches aren't really boosts. Turning them on defeats the built-in cuts that are otherwise in the circuit. That's just the amp, of course.

The 200S speaker cabinet (again, my own, tested by Conrad himself!) is pretty much flat from 50 Hz to 2000 Hz. But playing the 200S flat has a lot of bass. Most players don't want that much. Most of us want less low end and more low mids, to get that warm, punchy sound. Cutting the bottom octave (the 200S cuts 6dB/octave starting at 80 Hz) tightens up the sound a bit, and increases the available power.

I don't remember what frequency the 200S HI boost or treble controls operate at, but, with the cabinet rolling off starting at 2K, I can see how you might need the treble control turned up for a net flat output.

[Soundmasterg]

My experience with my own 200S is that it sounds pretty good flat, but that could be my basses, my style of playing, my bias.

Electronically, the 200S ought to be flat with the tone controls at zero and the boost switches on. Why on? Because the boost switches aren't really boosts. Turning them on defeats the built-in cuts that are otherwise in the circuit. That's just the amp, of course.

The 200S speaker cabinet (again, my own, tested by Conrad himself!) is pretty much flat from 50 Hz to 2000 Hz. But playing the 200S flat has a lot of bass. Most players don't want that much. Most of us want less low end and more low mids, to get that warm, punchy sound. Cutting the bottom octave (the 200S cuts 6dB/octave starting at 80 Hz) tightens up the sound a bit, and increases the available power.

I don't remember what frequency the 200S HI boost or treble controls operate at, but, with the cabinet rolling off starting at 2K, I can see how you might need the treble control turned up for a net flat output.

I'm hoping to get Conrad to LMS test my 2000S cabinet this summer sometime to compare to the 200S cabinet. I'd expect a little more bottom end since the cabinet is bigger. We tested my 200S before I sold it and flat, or at least as close as you could get out of the amp was with boost on and all tone controls at zero.

Greg