Author Topic: bass cabs  (Read 3670 times)

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Offline ghost town tim

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bass cabs
« on: April 25, 2002, 01:46:00 pm »
Okay, I was introduced to the wonderful world of Sunn when I purchased a super clean Sonaro a year ago and threw my Ampeg B-25 out the window. I recently purchased a Sunn 2x15 cabinet with new Eminence speakers. It sounded fine at low volumes at the music shop, but sounds like crud when I bring up the volume to about 5 1/2, which is loud, but it flutters and the low notes turn to mud. I'm sure the speakers are okay, but they don't seem to work with the cabinet design (the best I can tell). I don't know what model cabinet it is - it's larger than a friend's 2x15 Sunn with the Fender style grill cloth, and what appears to be newer construction (mine is larger, blue grillcloth). Basically, what kind of speakers make good replacments? Any help please?  Thanks, Tim

Anonymous

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bass cabs
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2002, 04:08:00 pm »
There could be a couple of issues here.  Is this one of the newer Sunn 2x15s, or is it an older Sunn that has newer Eminence speakers put in it?  Either way, a Sonaro doesn't have a lot of power to drive many cab/speaker combos at higher volumes, at least cleanly with a lot of headroom.  See other posts on this site about similar amps distorting around 5 on the volume dial.  The newer cabs are designed to suck a lot of power (the powerful 300T and the 1200S are the matched heads).

If this is a retrofitted 2x15 with newer Eminences, they might not be well-matched for the volume and port tuning of the cabinet.  They may also not be very efficient, considering you're running a 50-80 watt head.  I ran into this problem with my 215B.  I initially stuck in some cheaper Eminence replacements but it wasn't a good match.  Optimally, (given the T/S params for the drivers), they would have like to have seen a  larger cab interior volume and lower tuning -- they crapped out like you described as stage volume increased.  I put in a pair of EV 15BX drivers and they did much better -- I mapped out box performance given the T/S parameters and the box details and the theoretical response was much better.  In practice, the response is better too.  Plus, the EVs are at least 4 db more efficient than the Eminence I had used which makes a big difference.

I think the 2x15 cabs have a smallish internal volume (mine's about 2.46 ft^3 not counting the port) and they're tuned kinda high (around 60Hz) which means with most drivers you're gonna have a hard time getting a more "hi-fi" low bass response.  Regardless of the Fs of the driver, volume output is gonna drop sharply below the port tuning in most cases.  I forget where the F10 spot is on the response curve for my 215B is but it's pretty high..maybe 45-or 50Hz...not even down to low E yet!!

There is nothing wrong with the Sonaro as a bass amp but you might find it hard to play at really loud volumes without distortion, even with a really efficient cab.  I used mine as a backup for bass but primarily as a guitar amp.  For guitar, the Sonaro is excellent.  I used a Model T for bass but even with more power (which does make a substantial difference), I could still use more clean headroom.

Good luck!

Anonymous

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bass cabs
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2002, 04:14:00 pm »
There are also ways to wick more power out of the Sonaro.  If not so-equipped, you could put in a SS rectifier.  You could also run KT88s as an alternative to EL34 or 6550.

Offline ghost town tim

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bass cabs
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2002, 12:08:00 pm »

Offline ghost town tim

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bass cabs
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2002, 12:27:00 pm »
Thanks for the info. I would like to clarify some things still before I rush out and buy some EV15bx speakers (which I'm sure can't be cheap. The cab is an older one for sure. I have a 1x15 Sunn cab from the 70s with black grillcloth and I've been using a friend's 2x15 cab that has the same hardware but with silver cloth, which matches the Sonaro - early 70s? The cab I just bought has what appears to be older tolex and hardware and a blue-ish cloth. It is also taller than my friend's. I don't really have a distortion problem. The head is clean up til almost 7, then it breaks up a little. I play in a really loud band and usually run around 5 1/2 to six. I can't imagine using this as a guitar head! But the sound the cab makes is a frequency issue more than distortion. It sounds like a bunch of paper scraps flying around and the low e is just mush. Would these EVs work? I loaded my old Ampeg cab with four efficient Eminence 12's and it handled it well, except the cab wasn't deep and didn't develop lows well. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Tim

Anonymous

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bass cabs
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2002, 06:57:00 pm »
GTT,

Well, I wouldn't go out and buy EV speakers yet either.  The ones I mentioned (15BX) were around $200 a pop and I think that particular model was discontinued -- so you'd have to find some NOS or used ones.

There may be a few Eminence models with the right T/S parameters to fit the bill in your cabinet.  They'd probably be cheaper than a comparable EV.  Note that there are tradeoffs in selecting the characteristics for a replacements speaker and $$ seems to smooth out the tradeoffs.

I've gained some interesting perspective on the 215B I've been playing after a gig on Saturday.  My friends from another band showed up and played a few tunes on our instruments near closing time.  My buddy played my bass (a Ric) through my Model T 215B setup.  My opinion of the bass sound when I play in front of my rig (has usually been) that it's "woofy", boomy, inconsistent depending on where you are standing, not very tight, etc.  Don't get me wrong, it sounds alright and I get compliments...especially from people who like old gear -- I've always felt like I wanted a little bit tighter bass response, a more focused, less boomy sound.  Well, was I shocked when I stood about 10-15 feet away from the band while my buddy played.  It sounded GREAT!  Certainly not a modern trebly or ultra-low bass sound but very classic rock, much more tight sounding, and it fit in great with the other instruments.  The point of this is that a lot of your perception of the quality of the sound comes from where you are standing!  If you have one of the 2x15 cabs with the large, flared side shelf-port, then you know that the bass sound is much more enhanced to the side where the port is versus the side where the drivers are.  Another thing to consider is where you put cab in your stage lineup.  We play a bar where the room is so tight, that I have to stuff my 215B into a corner.  The walls are wood and the floor is almost like a concrete.  Loaded into this corner, my bass becomes ultra-boom!!  Very hard to control.  But I don't have to push as hard to get volume.  FYI.

Anyway, you should try having a friend who can play a bass (this may seem silly but even a lot of guitar players aren't very good at it!) plug into your rig and give it a go while you're listening.  Pay attention to how it sounds from all different directions.  Try loading it into a corner or up against a wall.

Yes, the Sonaro and similar amps are great for guitar.  Stick a tubescreamer in front of it and turn the bass knob down and you get a great classic rock sound -- especially when you drive the power section hard!!

Well, you could be right suggesting that it is a frequency issue rather than what we would normally consider "distortion".  What I mentioned in a previous post was true.  The response of my 215B cabinet is something like 10 db lower at 45 Hz than it is at 150 Hz!!  And 45 Hz isn't even low E yet.  Some of this difference can be fought with equalization and positioning in the room, floor loading, etc.  But it's not a great position to start from when desiring even bass response.

This is not to say that you'd necessarily want flat or ultra-low bass response in a bass cabinet anyway.  Some of the modern cabinets (thinking of the ones with 10" speakers especially) have higher F3s than I would have thought people wanted but they're very popular.  I know Ampeg has a few speaker cabinets that are supposed to have hi-fi and very low bass response, on the other hand.

Something else to consider...is your cabinet lined with any sound absorbing material?  Many of the Sunn cabs I've seen don't have any inside.  You might want to experiement with putting in eggcrate foam behind the drivers and on at least two other sides of the box.  This will help to eliminate standing waves, make the box appear slightly larger to the driver, and should give you a little tighter bass response (in addition to more volume in general).  Be careful not to stick the foam too close to the internal opening of the port.

Well, enough of the essay for today!  Good luck.