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Author Topic: MODEL T's 1st gen vs 2nd gen  (Read 19021 times)

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John Matrix

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MODEL T's 1st gen vs 2nd gen
« on: May 06, 2010, 12:29:10 pm »

What are the real differences in sound between the 1st gen model T and the 2nd gen with the red knobs? And if anyone wants to bring up the Fender ones too go ahead. I've never played out of any of them so I am just curious.
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django7866

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Re: MODEL T's 1st gen vs 2nd gen
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2010, 12:09:01 pm »

The fender Model T, although not a real Sunn, is a good high quality amp, it runs on 4 6L6's and 4 12X7s or maybe 6n8as can't remember. The circuitry is way different so that will make a huge difference in sound/Tone. I played on one for along time. I own a 1st gen and a 2nd gen. and I personally think the only difference in sound/tone is the 2nd gen has a mid select switch with 3 different options. I have not been able to play both side by side to see if there is really a true difference other than the mid boost switch mentioned. My 1st gen is getting a out put transformer replaced and when that is done I taking in my 2nd gen to have the tubes re biased or replaced. I know other people on here own multiple sunn model ts so they maybe more help, when it comes to comparing the 1st and 2nd gens. after owning a Fender model T. I would definitely say that vintage model ts sound way better. way louder too.     
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stanner

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Re: MODEL T's 1st gen vs 2nd gen
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2010, 07:21:14 pm »

AMPSSOUNDBETTERLOUDER

mike_sims

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Re: MODEL T's 1st gen vs 2nd gen
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2010, 01:07:03 pm »

The first Gen Model T's (1969 - 1973?) used a bassman/plexi style tone stack. The Second Gen Model T's 1974-1978 I believe incorperated a mid freq. boost switch and a baxandall (I think it's called) Tone stack, a blue & white wire from the master volume pot which reduced the volume once rolled  past 7 or 8, and a dual gang master volume pot. The Red Knobs weren't introduced until 75 I believe. They had a model (1974) that was nick named the "Transitional T" because it was the 2nd gen Amp, with the old outfittings (gray knobs, the smaller logo, etc.)

The second gen was more popular among bass players and didn't sound exactly like the first gen, although there are mods you can do to a second gen (which mine has) that get it near the First gen specs. I think the 2nd gen catches a lot of flack, but with or without the mods, it still sounds amazing. The original model T's have some of the best, monsterous, throaty tones I've ever heard. I pair it with a Sunn 412L (oversized/bass cab) and it sounds amazing, sounds like there's a monster in the cab breathing the riffs out.

As far as the Fender T, I couldn't tell you much, but from what I heard and what django said, that pretty much sums it, they're two different monsters, although the Older T's are way louder. I've also heard the Fender T's are very noisy on the gain channel and don't handle pedals too well.. Just heresay though. Someone correct me if my information is screwed up.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2010, 01:34:28 pm by mike_sims »
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EdBass

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Re: MODEL T's 1st gen vs 2nd gen
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2010, 09:36:31 am »

The first Gen Model T's (1969 - 1973?) used a bassman/plexi style tone stack.

I'm not nearly as familiar with the Hartzell era as I am with the Sundholm era, but I'm pretty sure that there wasn't a Model T until 1973 at the very earliest. I'm not sure that this "first Gen" of which you speak actually exists; at least I can't find any documentation that it existed. Of course, there were probably a couple of prototypes of the reworked 4 X 6550 chassis that became the Model T around before 1973, but I don't think you could buy one until 1973.
AFAIK the Sunn tube model lineup was pretty much three basic circuits until 1972, the 2 X EL34, 2 X KT88/6550, and 4 X KT88/6550. The EL34 amps went away in 1970, and the remaining two circuits were SS rectified and output rating was increased. By 1972, the entire tube amp spectrum was reduced to a bass and guitar version of the 2 X 6550 (190B, 190L), and a bass and guitar version of the 4 X 6550 amp (350B, 350L). 
If you think about it, it wouldn't made sense to have a Model T in 1969-1972; it would have been counterproductive for them to market a different 4 X 6550 that would compete with their existing 1000/2000 series amps, particularly when the trend for all amplifiers was heading towards "all transistor all the time" like it was in the early 70's.
I think the Model T was a way to cut down the remaining four tube amps (190L,190B,350L,350B) to just one multipurpose amp for guitar and bass for 1973.

mike_sims

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Re: MODEL T's 1st gen vs 2nd gen
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2010, 04:02:28 pm »

I found a brochure from the first model T, unfortunately it's too small to read.
http://www.richbriere.com/images/1972cat2.gif

Hmm, interesting. Perhaps I am mistaken. Yeah i do remember seeing some from 73 (without the mid select), I thought I heard some mention of a 69-72 before, maybe I just brain farted
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mike_sims

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Re: MODEL T's 1st gen vs 2nd gen
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2010, 04:09:48 pm »

Okay so upon reading the Sunn Catalog thread, I discovered there was a "Sunn Model T BASS" amp being sold and a "Sunn Model T lead" head being sold... Perhaps the Lead head was the amp without the mid select and the bass head was the one with the mid select (being a lot of bass players prefer those ones, it would make since too since with certain gear Bass lose their Mid range a lot). If that's the case, that would support what you said. Very interesting, I learn more everyday about these amazing amps... BTW, a little off subject, can anyone school me on the 2000S?
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CLD

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Re: MODEL T's 1st gen vs 2nd gen
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2010, 10:17:23 am »

The Model T "bass" and "lead" designations simply referred to combinations with bass or guitar speaker cabinets.

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Isaac

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Re: MODEL T's 1st gen vs 2nd gen
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2010, 11:18:07 am »

This is the way I think it was: the Model T head was used for both bass and guitar. The only difference between the Model T bass amp and the Model T guitar amp was what you plugged into it and what speakers you ran it to. In that time period, Sunn didn't designate speakers as being for guitar or bass, either.

The first generation Model T had no mid select switch, and the tone controls were as mike_sims says. As a bass player, I didn't care for the second generation T because the mid boost was always on. It could be reduced or increased, but not turned off. My T is a second generation transitional amp, with no red knobs or logo. I have cut the blue/white wire and modded the mid boost circuit so that 0 is off. I like it a lot better now.

I haven't taken a close look at the tone circuits, but I suspect that it does not have the Baxandall tone controls, based on their response. They sound as though they're all boost, no cut. So I think that I have a very early second generation Model T.
Isaac

mike_sims

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Re: MODEL T's 1st gen vs 2nd gen
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2010, 12:27:31 am »

here's a model T listed as 72.. could be incorrect though... Says it's all original but I think it's a new case (with the handle on the top)
http://cgi.ebay.com/72-Sunn-Model-T-amp-amplfier-first-generation-vintage-/190395976962?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c547c0d02
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clodo

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Re: MODEL T's 1st gen vs 2nd gen
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2010, 08:10:34 am »

Hello

I buy a model T there in the white buttons and a selector for the medium. Is a second generation?

here are the pictures

http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110519175338&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

jdfarrell81

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Re: MODEL T's 1st gen vs 2nd gen
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2010, 09:54:14 am »

Yep, that's a 2nd Gen. The knob color isn't really important; the mid selector switch is the telling feature of 2nd Generation Model T's. I'd imagine this is an earlier 2nd Gen.

clodo

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Re: MODEL T's 1st gen vs 2nd gen
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2010, 10:16:54 am »

Ok and there to really be a big difference between the two? I have seen it change the version 2 release 1. one of you has already tried?

Isaac

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Re: MODEL T's 1st gen vs 2nd gen
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2010, 12:38:01 pm »

Ok and there to really be a big difference between the two? I have seen it change the version 2 release 1. one of you has already tried?

Do you mean changing the 2nd generation T back to the first generation? I have done some of that with mine, and I like it much better. I have not done anything with the tone controls, though.
Isaac