Author Topic: Volume theory: would two 200s appear to be louder than one 2000s?  (Read 7800 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline MikeL

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 46
Volume theory: would two 200s appear to be louder than one 2000s?
« on: September 08, 2011, 02:20:20 pm »
If you were to match two well maintained circa '69 200s(both with solid state rectifier plug-ins)with two separate 115 cabs loaded with JBL D140's, daisy-chained together and both running at about 6 volume-wise with comparable tone settings, could those be as loud(or more?)as an equally well-maintained(same brand of fresh tubes all-around)single '69 2000s(with dual SS rectifier plugs, same volume/tone settings), hooked up to both cabs? I know there's plenty of variables in this comparison, mainly that in the the 2x200s set up, each head would see 8 ohms, while the 2000s would see 4 ohms. Not to mention with the 2x200s situation would have two separate output transformers...would that matter? I'm not that technically minded, so I'd love an explanation of the why's and wherefores.

Offline MammothVolume

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 71
Re: Volume theory: would two 200s appear to be louder than one 2000s?
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2011, 02:41:12 pm »
The volume difference for wattage is menial, really. It's something like double the wattage for +3db? So a hundred watt head is only +3db louder than a 50 watt head, to our ears. Someone could explain it more in depth than me, that's just how I understand it.

Offline MikeL

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 46
Re: Volume theory: would two 200s appear to be louder than one 2000s?
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2011, 02:52:50 pm »
Right, I understand that; but I was wondering if two 60 watt heads would have a little more "umph" than a single 120 watt head, with the same speaker arrangement in both situations.

Offline stanner

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 437
    • s t a n o s a u r
Re: Volume theory: would two 200s appear to be louder than one 2000s?
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2011, 03:31:05 pm »
i think its perceptual. if you were out of the room and listened to both examples-i dont think you could tell. put a spl meter on them and see what the difference is.
AMPSSOUNDBETTERLOUDER

Offline Soundmasterg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 745
Re: Volume theory: would two 200s appear to be louder than one 2000s?
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2011, 06:50:46 pm »
If you seperated the speaker cabinets from each amp across the stage, then you would get better sound coverage out in the crowd than if you had just one amp and speaker cabinet. I would think you would not have to run the 200S's as loud as the single 2000S setup to get the same perceived volume, but it is all kind of moot these days. Just about every venue you play in has a nice PA and most things get miked through it, so the volume to the crowd is largely controlled by the PA.

Greg

Offline EdBass

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,914
Re: Volume theory: would two 200s appear to be louder than one 2000s?
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2011, 11:10:31 pm »
Theoretically if the amps and drivers were truly identical; both 200S exactly the same and exactly half he output of the 2000S, all drivers the same (which would require the same cabinets, either all speakers in individual cabs or two 215 cabs), the output should be the same.

All of which is a moot point. Even with mass produced machine made amps, cabs, and speakers the variances between the individual components would make truly identical performance and response virtually impossible IMO. Using hand wired amps and hand built drivers? Way too many variables to expect it to be even close, let’s hear from some of the members that have “identical” amps; I know my “identical” amps have different response nuances.
The same settings don’t always produce the same results.

Back to the speakers; when two drivers are in close proximity, very simply put they work together in a phenomenon known as mutual coupling to accentuate (or negate attenuation of)the frequencies in which ¼ of their waveforms are as long or longer than the distance between them.
That’s one of the basic principles behind those flying line array speaker stacks that don’t look real impressive but will vibrate your innards like getting hit by a truck at pro rock shows.

Anyway, that’s another topic altogether and gets pretty technical pretty fast, so before this thread goes on an inappropriate transducer theory derail; suffice to say for the purposes of this topic if you didn’t use the exact same configuration of speakers for both the dual 200S rig and solo 2000S rigs you couldn’t possibly have a “heads up” comparison.
Even if you could get parity between the amps themselves, which I don’t personally think is feasible.  :wink:

Offline george

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 235
Re: Volume theory: would two 200s appear to be louder than one 2000s?
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2011, 05:48:01 pm »
seems like more trouble than it's worth - 2x times more work hauling the extra head and cabinet.

Offline MikeL

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 46
Re: Volume theory: would two 200s appear to be louder than one 2000s?
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2011, 06:48:07 pm »
seems like more trouble than it's worth - 2x times more work hauling the extra head and cabinet.


I'd be hauling both cabs in either situation...I'd never play thru only one 15" unless it was a coffee house type gig. I'm a firm believer in spreading the sound out through multiple drivers/cabinets. Being a bass player means you never have to get a gym membership!  The thing is...(and all this may sound silly)...as owner of four different 60 watt'ers(two 200s, a Sorado, and a later Sonaro)I was wondering if I should give up my quest to snag a 2000s, since I theoretically have the firepower of two of the bigger amps. You know, there's not as many around(compared to all of the 60 watt models)they're still going for stupid money on Ebay and vintage stores, even in these tight times, and just in ergonomic terms, I'd rather lift a 60 watt'r twice than to do a deadlift on a single 2000s(let's not even discuss acquiring/lifting a Model T). Now mind you, I've got wattage, a rack with a Yamaha preamp that goes into a QSC power amp that I use on specific occasions, and a Yamaha BBT, one of the first small lightweight digital bass amps with all the necessary bell and whistles, 500 watts into 2 ohms and I can lift it with my little finger, just for those times when I don't feel like schleping that much gear(all my cabs are on wheels or in road cases). HOWEVER, there is nothing that sounds like four hot 6550's pumping the air(that's really why we're all here, right?) You don't know how many times I've heard someone say(more or less)"Aw man, I haven't seen one of them amps in years, those things still work?". You bet they do. Most of the time that makes the extra effort worth it, in addition to having that feel and response connection that playing through a tube amp gives you. Certainly it's a heavier sound than using a BF/SF Bassman or Showman.

Offline pickinatit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 342
Re: Volume theory: would two 200s appear to be louder than one 2000s?
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2011, 06:57:15 am »
Answering just from your thread tittle (without reading your actual, whole question:

Just by virtue of the fact that people would be looking at TWO amp heads instead of one I'm sure that they would APPEAR to be louder!!!  (I was waiting for someone else to be the smart-ass, but......)

Offline EdBass

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,914
Re: Volume theory: would two 200s appear to be louder than one 2000s?
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2011, 10:48:18 am »
There is no denying that a pair of amps on stage has a certain visual factor that a single amp might not, but in most case the single bigger amp makes more sense IMO.
In the case of Sunns in particular, I think the hassle of dealing with two 200S's is counter balanced by the unwieldy size of the 2000S so it's almost a "push", but I've used both setups and to my ear the 2000S has a certain "bigness" about it that a pair of 200S's just don't seem to be able to cop.
Maybe it's that cantaloupe sized chunk of iron by the output jacks...  :wink:
I sometimes used to run a complete 200S rig next to a 100S or another 200S amp into a Hartke 410XL cab* in stereo when I used my Ric in "Ric-O-Sound" live. It did sound exceptionally cool but was a monumental hassle, and didn't have the sound presence or power that a 2000S does by itself.
At least not to my ears anyway.



*Initially the plan was to use a Sceptre rig next to a 200S rig, but I kept farting out the Sceptre 412 cab, even though it was only on the bridge PU.
I like the neck PU clean and deep and the bridge with some "hair" on it, but the Sceptre cab was just break up city and I couldn't make work; ended up just not using it at all.
Switching to the Hartke cab solved the problem.

Offline MikeL

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 46
Re: Volume theory: would two 200s appear to be louder than one 2000s?
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2011, 12:00:44 pm »
Answering just from your thread tittle (without reading your actual, whole question:

Just by virtue of the fact that people would be looking at TWO amp heads instead of one I'm sure that they would APPEAR to be louder!!!  (I was waiting for someone else to be the smart-ass, but......)

Ha! You know that's right! Purely psychological; plenty of 'big-time' guitarists(Rick Nielson in mind)have a wall of dummy 4x12" cabs on stage, while only playing thru a mic'd up small Fender or whatnot. A friend of mine who is a pro sound guy told me Robin Trower currently does the same thing. But realistically, most of the audience wouldn't know or care. Getting back to the original question, I hadn't seen the topic discussed before, and was very curious from a technical standpoint. I've previously owned a 2000s, used it on gigs thru a 2000s cab AND a modern 4x10, both were pretty forceful but had different tonalities of course. However, as I stated before, I'd rather lift a 200s style head twice, far more manageable, than sling around a single 2000s. And EdBass, I hear you, but I just wonder if the 'bigness' you refer to is a byproduct of the speaker cab size, or brand of the drivers within.  I recently picked up a Sorado cab(one piece baffle with two smaller tube port holes)with a couple of old Altec 421's; while it did have a certain low-mid punch, it sounds quite different than my JBL/200s cab with the classic front-loaded horn structure--more low end 'whoomp'. I just snagged one of those whacky 3x12" cabs with the angled baffle sides; unfortunately none of the three speakers matched, but when I can afford three identical drivers that can handle the bass, I'll report on it. I'll probably use it in a 'hillybilly bi-amp' fashion, powered by one of my 60 watters with some of the low end rolled off. Slowly approaching the Entwistle rig, as i tell my girlfriend, I'm not a Sunn hoarder, I'm a Sunn curator.  :lol: :-D

Offline loudthud

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,171
Re: Volume theory: would two 200s appear to be louder than one 2000s?
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2011, 09:52:59 pm »
MikeL, if that Sorado cab with the 421s in it has a white X on on the back and some patches to the tolex on the front edge about badge high, have I got a story to tell you.

Offline MikeL

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 46
Re: Volume theory: would two 200s appear to be louder than one 2000s?
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2011, 01:31:59 am »
MikeL, if that Sorado cab with the 421s in it has a white X on on the back and some patches to the tolex on the front edge about badge high, have I got a story to tell you.

No, but tell the story anyway, you've got my curiosity going...

Offline EdBass

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,914
Re: Volume theory: would two 200s appear to be louder than one 2000s?
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2011, 12:24:02 pm »
Answering just from your thread tittle (without reading your actual, whole question:

Just by virtue of the fact that people would be looking at TWO amp heads instead of one I'm sure that they would APPEAR to be louder!!!  (I was waiting for someone else to be the smart-ass, but......)

Ha! You know that's right! Purely psychological; plenty of 'big-time' guitarists(Rick Nielson in mind)have a wall of dummy 4x12" cabs on stage, while only playing thru a mic'd up small Fender or whatnot. A friend of mine who is a pro sound guy told me Robin Trower currently does the same thing. But realistically, most of the audience wouldn't know or care.

A lot of times the faux stacks are made of balsa wood and fabric, and I think way more often than not if you see a “wall of amps” it’s a stage prop rather than functional gear. In fact, your comment reminds me of a story I heard about actual size blown up pictures of amps going on a European tour instead of the prop rigs…
It’s actually kind of pointless to stack up a bunch of MI gear nowadays, modern PA systems are so much more efficient and effective for delivering LOUD than MI stage gear that it’s not even close. In the olden days it was necessary; Mountain’s Sunn walls, Grand Funk’s West Fillmores, Noel Redding’s 3 2000S rigs, etc. were an integral part of getting the “Experience” to the crowd.
Of course bass players can still get away with bigger rigs and more stage volume because they are down low, not that obnoxious high/high mid guitar register. To refer back to your Rick Nielsen comment; on the other side of that stage Tom Petersson’s rig is mostly all plugged in and functioning.



Today’s high powered line arrays can get stupid loud. In order to keep adequate headroom most pro SR systems have the capacity to not only well exceed any venues dB restrictions but to also get to an instant, permanent inner ear damaging level of “loud”.
In a pro gig situation once you get your tone generally the best bet is to let the SR system do the heavy lifting.

Getting back to the original question, I hadn't seen the topic discussed before, and was very curious from a technical standpoint. I've previously owned a 2000s, used it on gigs thru a 2000s cab AND a modern 4x10, both were pretty forceful but had different tonalities of course. However, as I stated before, I'd rather lift a 200s style head twice, far more manageable, than sling around a single 2000s. And EdBass, I hear you, but I just wonder if the 'bigness' you refer to is a byproduct of the speaker cab size, or brand of the drivers within. 

Even with identical cabs I think you get a presence with one big amp that you don’t with two smaller ones.
99% of the time I use one or two of these 215S cabs;



loaded with EVM15Ls. If I’m using Sunn power only, sometimes I’ll replace them with one or two D or K JBL loaded 200S cabs, but most of the time I use a Reeves as primary and I don’t want to get too enthusiastic and pop one of the vintage JBLs, so I generally only use the vintage stuff on special occasions.
Anyway, I’ve used these cabs with both a single 2000S as well as with a pair of 60 watters, and while tonally as well as visually the pair of amps “wins”, the single 2000S seems to give me more thump and headroom. Of course another issue with dual amps as far as maximum volume is phase issues; as I posted earlier IMO getting two vintage amps to truthfully perform identically is pretty unlikely, and if they are out of phase even a little it could compromise the ultimate SPL potential. Not very much probably, but a single amp wouldn’t have that issue.  Tonally, sometimes multiple amps can be a good thing; a little “thickening” effect when you blend the two, but IMO regarding your initial “louder” based post it could be counterproductive.
I’m the opposite of you regarding convenience; I would rather make one heavy trip as opposed to two lighter ones. My only problem with using a 2000S is the awkward size of the head cab rather than the weight. Most of my cabs are 24” wide and to me that 30” wide 2000S amp looks totally lame on top of one, I have such an issue with the aesthetics that unless I am using a 2000S cab (which is almost never) I put the amp on a stand instead of on top of the cab.

I recently picked up a Sorado cab(one piece baffle with two smaller tube port holes)with a couple of old Altec 421's; while it did have a certain low-mid punch, it sounds quite different than my JBL/200s cab with the classic front-loaded horn structure--more low end 'whoomp'. I just snagged one of those whacky 3x12" cabs with the angled baffle sides; unfortunately none of the three speakers matched, but when I can afford three identical drivers that can handle the bass, I'll report on it. I'll probably use it in a 'hillybilly bi-amp' fashion, powered by one of my 60 watters with some of the low end rolled off. Slowly approaching the Entwistle rig, as i tell my girlfriend, I'm not a Sunn hoarder, I'm a Sunn curator.  :lol: :-D

IMO those 200S cabs freekin’ thump down low, I imagine that mid range punch you describe is probably as much bottom end attenuation as it is any low mid boost compared to a 200S cab.
I’m lucky on the significant other issue. My wife doesn’t really care as long as I don’t impose on “her” house (which of course I do), the bills get paid, and the joint bank accounts continue to grow rather than get depleted by gear expenses. :-D