Author Topic: the differance between a 1200s and a 2000s  (Read 3711 times)

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Anonymous

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the differance between a 1200s and a 2000s
« on: June 27, 2002, 10:24:00 am »
i was wondering what in the tone circuit, the differance is between the 1200s and the 2000s. they have somewhat different voices? any recomendations on changing a 1200s to a 2000s. also will changing the resister on the input jack make a differance, enough of one to just do that and leave the tone circuit alone? will changing the volume, bass, trebble, and contour value affect the tone? thanks for looking. i've tryed to find a 2000s but they don't seem to be all that available any more. oh well.

Offline JoeArthur

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the differance between a 1200s and a 2000s
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2002, 12:15:00 pm »
The tone circuit between the two is different.  The 1200s is a tone stack, about the same as used in the 100s... etc. and by Fender, Marshall with some minor value changes between manufacturer and model.

The 2000s is not actually a tone "stack" configuration.  It's kind of a crossbreading between baxendall and a stack.  This particular tone control circuit is also used as is, in the Concert Bass and Lead series.

The input circuitry on both amps is the same.

What difference in sound or voice are you trying to achieve?  You could rewire one to be the other fairly easily - at least the control values are the same so you might need to buy a couple caps or resistors depending on what you choose to reuse.  A couple of bucks at the most in parts.

Offline Greg Z

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the differance between a 1200s and a 2000s
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2002, 09:38:00 pm »
I use my 1200s for both bass and guitar,
wouldn't change a thing for the world.
Just my opinion.
Greg Z
to thine own sound be true
 gmz79-at-aol.com

Offline Bill Matthews

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the differance between a 1200s and a 2000s
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2002, 03:21:00 am »
I have a 1200s, and it does not have reverb or tremelo, and I went thru each component of the schematic one by one between my 1200s head, and the 2000s schematic, and there is NO difference at ALL, maybe the later ones are different?  Anyone have any thoughts?
May ALL your days be SUNN-Y days

Anonymous

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the differance between a 1200s and a 2000s
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2002, 08:46:00 pm »
the 1200s head that i have differs from the schematic offered on this sight. i think the head i have is pre 1969.
i wanted the sound to just be deeper, more to the bass side than where it is right now-voiced for a guitar. i've been told that the larger the number on a cap the more the bass tones are emphasized and vice versa, but am not shure what caps replaced would do the trick. also would adding a cap or resister or both to the input jack make any differance. i do like how it sounds for guitar so the least modification nessary would be nice, but... if i have to change the tone circuit i may just do that. thanks for all of your replies.

Offline JoeArthur

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the differance between a 1200s and a 2000s
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2002, 08:23:00 am »
There isn't a 1200s schematic on this site, just the 2000s.  If you have Aspen Pitman's tube amp book, both are in there (volume 4).  The tone control network of the 1200s is more like the 100s than the 2000s.

The capacitance being the numbers on the cap, a smaller value cap will have more impedance at a particular frequency than a larger cap.  Whether a cap emphasizes bass or treble tones really depends on how it is connected in the circuit, not the value of the cap.

If you want the sound to be deeper, then you need to raise the center frequency of the tone circuit higher.  This may seem backward, but that's the way it works.  

If you can find the .022 cap attached to the center tap of the contour pot, replace it with a .01 value cap, making sure the new cap has at least a 400volt or higher rating.  This will raise the rollover frequency of the bass control about an octave higher giving you a deeper sound.

Anonymous

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the differance between a 1200s and a 2000s
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2002, 02:27:00 am »
pitmans book was the next on my list of must reads, glad to hear im on the right track. i put in a .012 cap and it made a great differance. bass guitar through it sounds much heavier, yet still tight and my guitar is so much thicker, but not boomy or muddy. any opinion on changing the caps between pins 1 and 3 of the 6an8 and the control grids of the output tubes? thanks for all the advice so far. pat

Offline JoeArthur

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the differance between a 1200s and a 2000s
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2002, 11:05:00 am »
NO!!!

Seriously... no, I would not recommend it.  

The 47K and .25mfd values are already providing a -3db rolloff somewhere between 10 and 20hz.  This is easily an octave below the lowest note on a standard 4 string bass, and still below a low "B" on a 5 string.  It is also below the range of normal hearing.  

I can see what you might be trying to achieve by increasing the values of these caps, but you wont notice any difference, and your amp might start motorboating on you.  Always consider modifications to circuits involving a feedback loop very carefully.

Things are not always what they seem when it comes to "tone" and some things are downright backward in reality from what is perceived.  

For example, if you like the tight bass sound you are getting, it is due to the bass response being reduced.  The deep or bass boost switch in the 2000s appears to boost the bass, but only to the level of bass sound you now have in your 1200s - AND when the switch is off, it cuts the bass more giving an even tighter sound.

If you absolutely positively have to play around with the bass response, keeping in mind that you might be losing tightness in your overall bass sound, possibly making your low E and A string prone to sound "splatty" instead of clear... AND also remembering you can always put it back if you don't like it...

Then take a look at the .01 cap coming off of pin 6 of the 12AX7.  This value cap provides a bass rolloff starting around roughly 150hz.  A .022 value will change the rolloff to roughly 70hz (which most Model T's have)... and a .047-.05 will get you a bass response below the low E string of a bass.  These caps also have to be rated 400volts or higher.

The most difficult thing to do when you start modifying an amp, is deciding when to stop.  You have been warned!! :grin:

Anonymous

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the differance between a 1200s and a 2000s
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2002, 04:34:00 pm »
thanks again for the advice. i wont be messing with the driver caps, what i cant hear does me nor the amp no good. i'm going to try changing the .01 cap to either .022 or .047 and see how i like it. sorry, another guestion, if you will.  there is a reasion the pots come in different values 250k, 500k, 1m, but what is it, and do the pots play a large role in the tone, is one value of pot more responcive than another, is one better to use with treble, bass ect... youre right once you dig in its lke an addiction, im sitting around drawing schematics and trying to come up with things to do with that spare tube punch out the chassis.

Offline JoeArthur

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the differance between a 1200s and a 2000s
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2002, 11:13:00 am »
Wow... you like asking questions where the only correct answer is "it depends" or maybe "yes and no" :grin:

Generally, tube amps will have larger values than solid state amps.  This is because tube amps are usually by nature high-impedance, and solid state amps are usually by nature low-impedance.  One exception are the Sunn concert lead/bass amps that use FET's in the front end, and since FET's are high-impedance solid state devices, can use the exact same tone circuit as the 2000s.

So in general, if your tone control values are "too low" for the impedance type of the amp, then you can "load down" the previous stage - reducing the gain and giving you a muffled or muddy tone, kind of like when you lower the volume control on your guitar and some of the highs go away.  

Is there such a thing as too high a value?  

Play with your bass control.  You will notice that it starts off increasing the bass fairly rapidly, but then the amount of increase you get slacks off to almost nothing by the time you get somewhere less than half-way.  This is a 1M pot - Fender amps with essentially the same circuit will generally use a 250K pot.  With the tone stack circuit, the extra resistance range of the 1M pot is usually not needed for maximum response.  So if you thought about putting in a 2-10M value for the bass control, don't bother.

Play with your treble control.  It will pretty much do as you would expect... acting like a volume control for the treble.  This is a 250K pot.  Slap in a 1M pot and the control will function differently... from about 7 up to 10 it will act much the same as the 250K pot, but as you get around the middle of the range it will start acting as a "treble-bass balance control", giving the perception of boosting the bass below a setting of about 4-5 on down to zero, and reducing it between about 5-7.  A see-saw effect between bass and treble.  Try out almost any Vox amp as an example (Vox tube amps usually use a 1M value for both bass and treble controls).

The value of the middle/contour control, sets the overall "insertion loss" of the tone circuit.  See... you are not really boosting bass or treble with those controls, you are really just reducing them less - another one of those backward things where we perceive things opposite of what is really happening.  Fender will generally have a 10K here, Sunn & Marshall will generally have a 25K.  By swapping in a larger value, the overall effectiveness of the treble/bass controls will be reduced - the boost or action of the controls will not seem to be as much, and if you go high enough in value, they will seem not to work at all.  Some amps provide a switch to disable or disconnect the ground connection to the middle control - an infinite middle control value, effectively making a tone bypass switch.

To recap:  

1) Values of controls within a certain range won't really make a drastic change.  You can change the response or "feel" of the controls which may or may not be to your liking... but you will not find a bunch of magical tone in changing values of the controls.

2) Tone controls change the frequency response of the input signal based on what they subtract out.  They cannot put something there that isn't there to begin with.

e.g. By changing the .022 contour cap value to .012 you are not subtracting out as much of the upper bass/midrange frequencies as you were before.

Anonymous

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the differance between a 1200s and a 2000s
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2002, 06:41:00 pm »

thanks for the advice it was quite helpfull.
sorry to ask so many questions and thanks for your time answering them, i have so many, being that im just getting started.
pat.

Anonymous

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the differance between a 1200s and a 2000s
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2002, 11:16:00 am »
Oh great one,
since you wealth of knowledge far surpasses mine HELP. How do i wire up a XLR out from my 200s ?? is it from the pre-amp stages, or from the 6an8 tube?? or ??


Offline JoeArthur

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the differance between a 1200s and a 2000s
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2002, 01:42:00 pm »
I'm sure you don't mean me, but you might want to ask this question in a new thread for others with more knowledge to see it easier.

You might provide some information as to what you intend to get out of this exercise and what you really mean.  For instance, XLR can mean a type of connector, it can mean an output specifically driven by a transformer interface... to mean a "balanced output" however that balanced output is produced.  Then again, you might be talking about something as simple as a line-out.

XLR... both connector and balanced outputs are generally used in PA equipment which I don't really mess with.  I've never had a need to retrofit one into a guitar/bass amp.

Anonymous

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the differance between a 1200s and a 2000s
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2002, 02:27:00 pm »
i would agree, as the one who started this thread, a new thread wpuld be the way to go.
pat