Author Topic: How does a bass pot work in Sunn tube amps?  (Read 7607 times)

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Offline sledz

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How does a bass pot work in Sunn tube amps?
« on: September 29, 2014, 03:22:05 pm »
Hello.

Bass pots in my 2000s and Sceptre amps boost low end up to '2'. Above '2' bass pot does nothing. I used to own Sonaro amp and it's bass pot did boost low end the same way up to '2', but then it did boost low end further up to '10' - so it had a much bigger boost than my 2000s and Sceptre. All of them were checked and servised, original condition etc... How does it work in your amps, or how should it work?

Also, contour pot works in different way in Sceptre and 2000s. In Sceptre it makes the sound a lot brighter with lots of sparkle, while in 2000s it makes rather a subtle change in midrange. Is it normal difference between contour controls in these amps?

Offline Ryan Phelps

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Re: How does a bass pot work in Sunn tube amps?
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2014, 02:27:44 pm »
All the tone controls on a 2000S, Sceptre and Sonaro are "cut" controls, not boost or boost / cut controls (like a Baxandall circuit used in some Ampeg amps). So the "boost" you are hearing is simply the cut control being backed off to allow more lower frequencies through. The 2000S and Sonaro were voiced for bass, the Sceptre was voiced for guitar. So the contour controls will affect the tone differently depending on the instrument you are using.

Offline sledz

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Re: How does a bass pot work in Sunn tube amps?
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2014, 02:04:41 am »
All the tone controls on a 2000S, Sceptre and Sonaro are "cut" controls, not boost or boost / cut controls (like a Baxandall circuit used in some Ampeg amps). So the "boost" you are hearing is simply the cut control being backed off to allow more lower frequencies through. The 2000S and Sonaro were voiced for bass, the Sceptre was voiced for guitar. So the contour controls will affect the tone differently depending on the instrument you are using.

Hm, flat tone is with bass/treble/contour pots at '0', so what these pots do is boosting frequencies - I don't know and doesn't care how does it technically work, but what I hear is definitely a boost...

Anyway this doesn't clarify what's going on with little bass boost which works just up to '2' in my 2000s and Sceptre and big bass boost up to '10' in Sonaro I had...

Offline Isaac

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Re: How does a bass pot work in Sunn tube amps?
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2014, 08:12:20 pm »
Ryan, I think you are mistaken and sledz is correct, that the tone controls are boost only, not cut.

sledz, I think the difference in the bass controls may be in the potentiometer taper. Sunn used a lot of linear pots where others might use audio taper. The result of that is that most of the change comes from 0 to 2, with very little change after that. The Sonaro may have an audio taper pot in that position.
Isaac

Offline Soundmasterg

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Re: How does a bass pot work in Sunn tube amps?
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2014, 08:54:45 pm »
Ryan, I think you are mistaken and sledz is correct, that the tone controls are boost only, not cut.

sledz, I think the difference in the bass controls may be in the potentiometer taper. Sunn used a lot of linear pots where others might use audio taper. The result of that is that most of the change comes from 0 to 2, with very little change after that. The Sonaro may have an audio taper pot in that position.

How is it going to boost though Isaac? Technically a boost will require some sort of active device. I know that I've read before that the tone controls for the Sunns are flat at zero, but that is just voicing. It probably gets it's max output through the circuit with all of the controls on 10, in which case they would be the typical cut only controls like a Fender, but of course the circuit is arranged differently.

I think you are correct about it being a taper thing with the original poster's missing bass....though maybe there is a missing ground somewhere also? It would be worthwhile to check over the wiring in the amp and compare to what it is supposed to be according to the schematic.

Greg

Offline sledz

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Re: How does a bass pot work in Sunn tube amps?
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2014, 06:06:48 am »
sledz, I think the difference in the bass controls may be in the potentiometer taper. Sunn used a lot of linear pots where others might use audio taper. The result of that is that most of the change comes from 0 to 2, with very little change after that. The Sonaro may have an audio taper pot in that position.

I guess that's right, as my tech claims he saw and measured no fault in these amps. What makes me wonder is anyway bigger boost in Sonaro. Anyway thanks for the info!

Offline Isaac

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Re: How does a bass pot work in Sunn tube amps?
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2014, 12:31:18 pm »
An amplifier is by definition an active device. A Fender tone stack is boost only on the bass and treble controls and cut only for the midrange control, so that the flattest response is with the bass and treble controls at zero and the midrange control at ten. Sunn tone controls are almost identical to the Vox tone controls, with a few differences in component values. Use the Duncan tone stack calculator to graphically see what the tone controls are doing.

http://www.duncanamps.com/tsc/download.html
Isaac

Offline Ryan Phelps

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Re: How does a bass pot work in Sunn tube amps?
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2014, 12:17:50 am »
Issac.....certainly an amplifier is an active device. But we need to distinguish between active and passive tone controls; they are different. Active tone controls, by definition, feed a selected frequency range back to an prior amplification stage, therefore boosting it. Look at any active Baxandall circuit and you will see the feedback loop.
There is also a semantic issue with the word "boost". Some may perceive that an amp "boosts" a certain frequency range when the circuit actually creates a signal loss, but then allows more bass or treble of this reduced signal through to the next stage, thus affecting a "boost" of the selected frequency.
As most of us know, the original Model 60 amp was based on the Dynaco Mark III power amp and the Dynaco PAM pre-amp. The PAM preamp (as well as the PAS-2/3) used an active version of the Baxandall circuit. As Dynaco described the circuit, both the treble and bass controls are “flat” in the center position and cut in the counter-clockwise direction and boost in the clockwise direction. These controls truly boost because the output of the tone circuit is fed back to the prior stage thus amplifying the selected frequencies. This is the same circuit used in the Sunn Model 60. Conversely, the passive version of the Baxandall circuit affects a “boost” of a selected frequency by attenuating a different frequency, but without amplification, so there is a net signal loss. Here is a good discussion of this:   http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/Amplifiers/amplifiers42.php
The later Sunn tube amps (2000S, 200S, Sceptre, Sonaro) all use variations of a different circuit that more closely resembles the typical Fender / Marshall / Vox tone stack. This is not a Baxandall circuit (either passive or active).
I agree with Greg that your comment on potentiometer taper could be an issue with Sledz perception of missing bass. There could also be some other malfunction with the circuit that is causing this issue.
Your comment on the Fender tone stack is relative to the fact that there is a significant signal loss with this circuit, so that the "boost" is actually less signal loss of a selected frequency range. I think you are mistaken that the "Sunn tone controls are almost identical to the Vox tone controls" .....similar, but not the same, even disregarding the component values. The layout of capacitors and resistors around the bass control is different.
I would love to see any of the Sunn tone circuits (they are different from model-to-model) modeled in Duncan's tone stack calculator so we could see how they perform.
In any case, the Sunn circuit is definitely passive (rather than active) and any perceived "boost" is the result of less signal loss of that selected frequency range. Again, I acknowledge the issue of semantics. If some people consider this a "boost", I can understand that.
I would also welcome any technical discussion that would shed more light on how the Sunn circuits function. I appreciate all the member contributions to this board! We learn by sharing. Thanks guys!

Offline Isaac

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Re: How does a bass pot work in Sunn tube amps?
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2014, 10:43:09 pm »
I accept the correction on theoretical grounds. I stand by my practical assertion, that the net effect is boost only. I agree that it would be nice if the filter calculator included Sunn tone controls. I'd like to see my Peavey T. B. Raxx controls, too. They have a different configuration than I've seen elsewhere.

T. B. Raxx schematic can be found on this page, sixth post down: http://forums.vintageamps.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=79932&start=0
Isaac

Offline Soundmasterg

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Re: How does a bass pot work in Sunn tube amps?
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2014, 09:09:37 pm »
Ryan articulated on what I pointed out pretty well, thanks Ryan! What I meant by 'active device' Isaac is a tube, transistor, etc. Something that provides gain.....most tone control circuits do not provide gain through them because they are passive networks, (a collection of pots, caps, and resistors) and the gain reduction may be as much as 20dB. Fender's is particularly lossy, but it sounds good and does what it does with a minimum of parts so that is why it is used. If a tone network actually allows the ability to increase the gain at certain frequencies, like many of the 80's and newer amps with graphic EQ, then those are often active tone control networks with some kind of gain device such as a transistor in the tone control network to provide a boost to those frequencies.

Greg

Offline Ryan Phelps

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Re: How does a bass pot work in Sunn tube amps?
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2014, 07:43:19 pm »
Gentlemen,
Sorry for my delayed response. I appreciate all of your comments on this subject. I find it refreshing to find such reasoned replies! Good to know that there are others that appreciate this antique gear! Thanks guys!